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Sorry for using some academic jargon. I'll work on rewording in laymen's terms. My mistake, not your intelligence. :)

Are you speaking of my most recent post or all of the above?
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Just the last one Magnum. No apology necessary. You can't help that you are smart.
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We live in a fallen world in which the last enemy is death.


Indeed! At 52 years old the only death I have ever known was the death of my parent's. Both died while I held them. Yes. Death is indeed an enemy and my faith is hanging by small withering threads.

Often I see elderly that appear to be not so nice and I wonder why God took the only people that I loved. Why did this happen? They were great people and not so great people continue to thrive.
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Woo, this is a bit deep for me. My religious beliefs are very simple. God is the spirit that breathes energy and life into the universe. Everything carries a bit of the spirit. So we see a rock, a squirrel, or a tree. They all carry their bit of the spirit in them. When we think this way, we have respect for the things around us.

About wars and sickness -- they are going to happen. Deer fight. Squirrels fight. Fish eat each other. Chimps will wipe out another group of chimps. Humans may hold up holy books and wage holy war, but it's really just trying to gain dominance. Sickness it pretty much the same. Everything gets sick and dies. Humans have found ways to make life longer, but at the same time have made sickness longer. This is quite understandable, since people generally died before they were 80 and now often live well into their 90s. Those last years often carry the burden of poor health. So they are a blessing on one hand and a curse on the other.

One thing I love to see is the effort of some philanthropists to ease suffering in the world. I like it best when they don't make the help contingent on believing in a certain religion. This kind of help is saying that it is there because the individuals are special and worthy, and not to promote an agenda. The world is a sad place at times. Sometimes people are killed or not helped because they're not the "right" religion.
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Religion, heaven and hell never cross my mind. Everyone is entitled to believe in what they wish but for me it's all about how you treat others day to day. Having been abused by Mommie Dearest life long I prefer animals to most humans though I do have a close circle of friends I can trust and be myself with. I support local animal rescue and share the bounty of fruit, veggies and chicken from my little homestead every year. It's not earth shaking but it is who I am and who I will always be.
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I'm not sure that God "takes" anyone. Why some good older adults die while some mean adults live is an age old question that is also asked in the Old Testament Psalms who voice such feelings about this type of injustice, but then end in faith. Also, I'm not sure that all good older people die before the mean ones do. Maybe this is easier for me to deal with for I've seen death of loved ones and friends that I knew since I was a child.
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Here's my second post about proof. I hope this communicates better.

I must add some comments about the word "proof" and then I'll be quite.

The phrase "scientifically proven" is a great marketing tool. However, science does not prove anything absolutely.

Why? There is always the possibility of finding new information. The new information may support a theory. The new information may contradict the theory.

For example, we might think that a certain medicine has been proven to work. However, over time, they may find that it has unexpected side effects that are worse than the benefits of the medicine. Another example from medicine is sometimes a medicine is found to help people with other problems than the one the medicine was initially made for. For example, Viagra was initially made for the heart, but then other uses were found which most people know it by today. Another medical example is Latuda which is an antipsychotic was recently approved for helping those suffering from bipolar depression like me.

Because new information might be found to support or contradict a medical product or something, a good scientist will say something along the lines of "the evidence supports the theory that ..." They will never say "my theory is proven."

We would like absolute certainty. However, we have to be content with how much confidence we have in the evidence. In other words, what is the probability this is true based on what we have found.

For example, some biblical scholars thought that there must have been two Isaiahs who wrote the book of Isaiah. When pushed to say why, their answer shows a prior assumption that Isaiah prophecy about what would happen to Israel could not have taken place. Their prior assumption, not any evidence is why they saw it this way. A prior assumption is also known as a presupposition.

Years later, the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls showed that Isaiah was one whole book. This ancient copy of Isaiah led people to have more confidence that the original Isaiah was one whole book with one author.

People sometimes question how reliable is our current copy of the New Testament. Over the years more and more copies of the NT or parts of the NT have been found and darted. The result is that we have more evidence that supports, not proves how reliable our current copy of the NT is.

We have more copies of the NT or parts that are nearer to when they were written than other ancient writings. This does not prove anything. However, it does suggest a high probability or likelihood.

It is far too easy to skip observing, questioning, and interpreting the evidence for and against. When someone does that, they just jump right into their own self-selective conclusions with selective "proofs" or evidence. We see this when people use the Bible as a collection of proof texts for their own purpose.

Otherwise, one is left with easily believing something or easily not believing something without the hard work of thinking either through.
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Science and religion can't be considered together, cmag. There is no way to test if there is a god or not. If we consider god as the one who knows everything, god is totally awesome. Particle physics and neuroscience are trivial things to god, because god has all the knowledge needed to build the universe and each part within it.

In order to test something, you have to step outside of it and formulate a hypothesis of some sort. We could do something very simple like hypothesize that god is responsible for an ant moving (or the null hypothesis that god is not responsible). We could show all the chemistry and mechanics that support that god is not needed for the ant to be moving. BUT we are inside the system and cannot say that god was not the master chemist and physicist that put it all together at the start.

Science and faith don't mix, so aren't considered together. Any scientist will simply say that "God isn't real" is not a testable hypothesis. Some scientists believe in god; others don't. Scientific "evidence" that there is no god is no more valid than religious "evidence" that there is.
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I was raised a Catholic. When I was in elementary age, I remember praying to God on why He made me be born (terrible childhood and wondered why God made me born to suffer all these terrible things.) When I was age 19, I wanted to learn more about God. I went to the Catholic church and asked how I can learn the bible. Didn't care for the answer. So, I signed up for a bible study through the mail with the Seventh Day Adventist. I also spoke to other religions. In the end, I chose one. I learned to read the Bible from front to end, several times. I would study it by reading different bibles - King James, Catholic, etc... I would have like 4 to 5 bibles out in front of me and I would read each verse from all the bibles. Some bibles had those footnotes. I would go to those footnotes (using all the bibles.) I attended bible classes, etc...

I've learned from the bible stories that to believe in God and to have faith in him is not an easy road to travel (hence go thru the narrow road and not the wide road). You see in the examples of Noah, Lot and his wife, Jonah (who didn't want to preach God's words to those scary people and so he fled - and got swallowed by a fish - most likely a whale..) Paul and Jesus suffered. Hence, in my conclusion, I believe in God but I choose not to follow the narrow road. I will continue to plug on in life and when I die, Please Do NOT resurrect me! I don't want to go to heaven or earth or anywhere. When I die, leave me be.

In all my readings of the Bible, the only time God killed people - it was by mass killing - like the Flood, Lot's city which was filled with really bad sinners (even young boys tried to rape the angels who went in looking for people worthy of saving due to Lot's requests...) It's called Judgment. I'm a little sketchy on the stories because it's based on my memory of that time when I was deeply into the bible (in my mid-20's).

So, when my sister's boyfriend shot the gun and accidentally killed their baby who was going to 'drop' in her stomach to be born, I was very angry when the priest said in the funeral mass that it was God's Will that He took the baby.... God did Not take that baby. His father killed him. Not God. I'm 100% positive that my sister's baby will be resurrected when the allotted time arrives. When people say that my mom might be resurrected, inside, I cringe. I don't know. Because I don't know if God will think she's worthy of a 2nd chance despite the way she raised us kids. I don't know, I don't care...as long as I die, and I stay dead. This life sucked since I was in kindergarten (furthest memory of my deep fear of staying home from school. I'd rather be in school where I was bullied, than to stay home...) I have no desire to live forever, not even if it's in heaven. Just let it be done. Period.
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Faith isn't just about spiritual belief, but also emotional belief from within each person. Questioning faith is what makes us human. Death of a loved one can cause such questioning. All the knowledge in the world about religions cannot answer what is after death, anymore than what happened before birth. All I can say is if you have belief in yourself and continue being a good person you will find the inner peace you had found prior to your father's death.
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Anyone remember the old movie "Oh God" with Bob Denver and George Burns? I can't remember the specifics of the movie but I clearly recall God (George Burns) saying he didn't get involved in the little things - and just about everything was little. That he created man, gave him free will and left the rest up to us - even if the results were disappointing. I remember it so well because I thought "that's it! That's how it works". I must have been a young teenager at the time - but I continue to believe that if our existence is a product of one great creator, that he/she is not a micromanager. I don't blame God for the atrocities that mankind does - genocide, wars, the wide variety of abuses suffered by children and animals etc. If there is a God he must surely be shaking his head at the millions of deaths that have occurred since the beggining of time in his name. As for the vast differences in religions - some claiming to be THE religion - I think there's room for all that are sincere in their service to God. Even the religions that seem a little out there to non-members. Both my dad and I were fascinated by the LDS - Mormon - we could talk about them for hours. I use to have a store manager who worked for me - he was an Elder in his LDS church. On an overnight visit to his store we went out to dinner - we agreed our discussion was "off the books" and spent the entire dinner talking about his church. He told me he viewed disabled children as the closest to God - that they are only here to help us become better people and when their time here is over they immediately get to "go on". I gotta admit I liked the idea - but I also was between husbands at the time and he also said "Join the LDS church, we'll find you a husband". Umm - no thanks! But both Bookluvr and Retiredarmy touch on what I think is a large part of my problem - after all my crisis began with my dads death. But what happens when we die? Are we just dead? Is there heaven and hell? I've even pondered what happens in heaven - when we see our loved ones again, how does it work for a remarried widow? Which husband is she reunited with? Or is it all one big happy family without trivial worries like that? I know that seems like a silly thing to worry about...Another movie reference - anyone see Defending Your Life? I like to think that perhaps if there is life after death it works like that. But the fact is no one knows what happens to our "soul" after we die. There is no science, no great faith that knows that for sure. I suspose that if the conclusion of my search is depended on knowing that - I will remain forever lost.
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Babalou, very nice, insightful, educated and concise observation.

Jessie, very realistic and compassionate assessment in your first post, and well balanced scientific vs. acceptance on faith analysis in your second post, although I do recall reading sometime ago about scientists who do accept that there is a god. And the null hypothesis? Wow! You're helping me remember things I'd forgotten about.
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cmagnum summed it up well. Rain, thank you for sharing. You are not alone. I was also a Presbyterian, went to church every Sunday, was even a Deacon. Then when I was around 50, I stopped going (mostly because my church became much too politically involved and opinionated to the point the minister's sermons were bashing one side, praising the other. In other words - no longer spiritual but preaching a political agenda.) So I stopped going. That was 15 years ago, and I never went to another church. A few years ago, I sort of forgot to pay, then I forgot how to pray. Now I am heartbroken because I have lost my faith, and I want it back. But, I too, wonder how there can be so much cruelty in the world and can't accept it is God's "test". Now I am confused and don't know where to turn. I live by God's word, by God's rules, by the 10 commandments but I don't know how to look up any more. I've thought about talking to a pastor, but if I hear the same old "rhetoric" that won't do it for me. I need a spiritual awakening, a message or something. I just don't know how to find it. And watching my mother decline day by day and knowing that in 20 years I will go that path has not helped my emotions without God to turn to with complete faith.
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I told myself to stay away from this discussion but here goes:

Years of Parochial School raised Catholic in Boston has put much doubt in my religous beliefs...
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Nothing wrong with that assandache, that's what this thread is about. All believer, non-believers and those just not sure are all welcome.
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Rainmom, I just have to say it -- John Denver. Bob Denver was Gilligan and Manor G. Krebbs (or however you spell it). John Denver was my vocal hero. I just loved his music, especially "Looking for Space." The song fits this conversation so well. Anyone who wants to play it can find the video online. If that song doesn't wake up something inside, nothing can.
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Good Lord! Pun intended. I knew that! Just made a post a few days ago with a Gilligans Island reference. Plus - I also love John Denver - what girl child from the 60's didn't! You don't suspose its Alzimers, do you? Okay - bad joke! Thanks for the correction!
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I loved John Denver too. His songs touched my heart and soul. I'm sad that the music today is either whiney, frantic or discordant. It doesn't have soul! I listen to the 60's and 70's.
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Robert Heinlein put it thus: "there is no proof of life after death. But neither is there any proof against it. Sooner or later you will know…"

The other question, of why suffering is visited on good people to no clear purpose, is one for the ages. I remember stumbling over something along the lines of: "without your consent you are born and without your consent you live and without your consent you die" [so take what you're given and stop complaining, was the gist] - probably Chasidic, it usually is when it's that brusque.

Rainmom, like you I had a bit of a liquorice all-sorts religious education and took it terribly, terribly seriously when I was a wee tot. In fact the other day a "friend" emailed me a copy of a poem I wrote on the subject that got inexplicably published in the school magazine in 1975 - excruciating, I wish I could track down all copies and burn them immediately - but I digress. Did you not find, in your religious travels, that most if not all traditions have their central tenets in common? So that none of them has the answer, but then again in other ways they all do and you can't go far wrong whichever you follow?

To give an example of what I'm getting at, take mindfulness. Very useful habit to develop, lots of medical evidence of how good it is for calming down your brain hormones and helping you get your priorities straight. But as I was trawling the internet for a guide book to practical mindfulness (and tee-heeing over some of the extremely funny satires you bump into while you're at it), and rejecting them one after the other on the grounds of bad grammar or bonkersness or extortion, it occurred to me that the many, many hours I spent long ago sitting, standing or kneeling in a variety of religious settings - well, varied except for the extreme cold, that is - were in themselves devoted to exactly the same purpose. And since I am already familiar with C of E liturgy, I might as well stick to it. Unfortunately Sister Eleanor with her gleaming Goebbels glasses is no longer around to chivvy me down to the chapel so my new year's resolution is not going so well - I say resolution. More tinkering with an idea - that re-establishing a pattern to the week and including in it regular attendance at a service would do me good and concentrate my mind.

I don't think answers, or Answers, are what religion is for; and especially not Christianity, with the celebration of mystery at its heart. But look at all the goodies you do get! You get an ethical and philosophical framework. You get a perspective on the world and how you ought, as best you can, to deal with it. You get the condensed experience, and often wisdom, of countless preceding generations. If you're the clubbable type, you get a community to be part of. You get a 24/7 helpline - and even if you don't feel you get any feedback from prayer, prayer does at least help you organise your hopes and cares. I wouldn't throw out those babies with the bathwater.

I also wouldn't worry about getting struck by lightning. I work on the assumption that, as with the prodigal son, God would be delighted to welcome your faith; but quite honestly, if you're not ready, if you never will be ready, if you flatly refuse to countenance the existence of any such thing even, it's no skin off His nose (I don't expect he puts it quite like that). Certainly not to the extent of bothering to smite you, anyway.

I wonder if maybe what we lose when something terrible happens, or whole series of terrible things for that matter, is not so much faith as trust. We trust in a loving God who orders the universe, and when that universe seems to us to be going very badly and painfully we would like an explanation. But tough, we're not getting one.

So no, you don't get many "why?" answers, I agree. Just a thought: it's possible we wouldn't understand the answer even if we knew what it was.

"The cheese mites asked how the cheese got there,
And warmly debated the matter.
The orthodox said it came from the air
And the heretics said from the platter."
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Well written, Countrymouse. No wonder that poem was published so many years ago. You have a gift for writing.
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Will I sing Hallelujah?
Will I be able to speak at all?
I can only imagine......

(You can shoot me now, I am ready).
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CMouse, your first quote reminded me of a line from a song by The Band I think...

IM CUSSING HEAVEN AND PRAYING THERE AINT NO HELL

Always liked the expression...

I RATHER LAUGH WITH THE SINNERS THAN CRY WITH THE SAINTS
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One of the biggest problems I have with religions is the beginning and Adam & Eve. God gave them this wonderful garden, but told them not to eat of the fruit of a certain tree or they would surely die. We learn later that god knows everything that has happened or will ever happen. Then comes the big question. If god knew what was going to happen with that tree, well then why did he put it there? I have been troubled by that since I was a kid. Wasn't it a bit of a setup? I mean, if I had kids, I wouldn't set poison in the middle of the room, then tell them not to eat it or they would die. The Creation is shared by Christians, Jews, and Muslims, I believe.

Then I wonder if the Muslims split off from the Jews at the time of Ibraham (Abraham), then is Allah the same god as Yaweh? I've asked this to some people, but it just makes them mad for some reason. So I leave it alone.

I believe strongly in God, but the Bible (and similar books) confuse me utterly.
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I will have to do a re-read of everyone's comments; some deeply honest and others highly intelligent. Wow, what a great discussion. I too have experienced despair over the many kinds of suffering in my personal world it is really difficult to go through. I want to share the idea that what the divine plan is for our "consciousness" or the "soul" beyond this earthly existence is so beyond our understanding, involving the whole cosmos and time/space in such a way that our current experience is but a small slice; in fact, so small a slice, that our comprehension could only be very weak indeed (which sucks!). All that to say: the suffering we have on this earthly plane may be over in a blink of an eye, and that once we become our timeless, holy selves, we may say, "oh, that was okay, I get it now. .I had to take that journey to find out something about myself and about love or strength or whatever" On the other hand, if I die tomorrow and stay completely without awareness, well there is the end of suffering and what a relief! Personally, I have a sense of the eternal even though I am not a devout religious person. My trust in God is this: the person I was when I was younger would not have been able to offer the caring that I have since given to those I love and many others that needed my help. Likewise, I have learned to receive love and assistance (even harder). How did I become a generous and loving person who can give without calculation? That was due to the small inner voice. Without that voice, I would still be selfish and scared. I listened to that voice, and the result has been at times beautiful and rich. I have also pushed too far for someone else's improvement and I have hung back at times when I could have helped someone else, and I have not given enough to me. Its a messy thing, this life! But, all in all, there is a benevolent presence that informs my life. It comes within, but is greater than I. I have to trust that. There are many dark and sad events I can do nothing about, and yet I have to witness them. Being aware of the trauma, the suffering and the injustice of life is sooo hard, for my heart's desire is for all beings to have mercy. For me, that desire is itself a divine suggestion. I hope I can follow the truth of my heart so that it lights up my own life in deed or thought or feeling. I believe even a thought can make a difference. I couldn't do it alone, because I have it in me to be quite morose; God must be helping me to have these feelings of love and mercy. On the note of the afterlife, I had a friend who died. I was there near his end and his body really fell apart; not a good death at all. I had a dream several months after he passed. In the dream, he came to tell me that he was okay. He showed me his skin, which was silky, his face was radiant and he was young again. He told me that he was doing great and showed me what he was doing. In the space around us appeared little electric blue lights configured like 3 dimensional blueprints or constellations. In fact, he said he was designing these things. I woke up quite sure he was alive somehow, somewhere. . It could be my imagination, but I prefer to think it is God's imagination making itself known to me.
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I've always believed that there is something more than we see of this objective reality. Had enough unusual experiences to be convinced of it as fact. But I have struggled with the concept of a loving God ever since real suffering entered my life. I tend toward the idea of God as pervasive, everywhere, like a substrate of existence....its more impersonal but I don't feel as abandoned by That as I would a personal God who saw what happened yet did nothing. Some say that from the greater perspective it all makes sense, that if you could see your life as part of a greater pattern or weave of life it would all fit to create something beautiful. But if your life has more dark threads than you can bear, I'm not sure how one accepts that with grace.
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Will I stand in your presence
To my knees will I fall
Sendme2help - Bang
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Jessie its why painters have wet paint signs ....just so as we will touch it to see if it is wet and then moan when we have paint on our hands!
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JessieBelle - Yahweh and Allah very much are the same one and only divinity, the same as is the God of the Old Testament and the New. The three traditions then divide into differences of opinion about whether Christ was an earthly manifestation of actual God as such: yes he is no he isn't yes he is ad infinitum; and then the various churches divide again, like a kind of chaotic fractal pattern, into different views of whether or not and how literally if so that earthly presence was and is tangible - all the way from transubstantiation in the Catholic mass to Unitarians wavering on whether Christ was even Divine, and I think the Friends decided some time ago that it isn't important whether he was or not, what matters is following the example.

Islam has the greatest respect for its Judaic and Christian forebears - Jesus is definitely up there in one of the levels of Heaven, can't recall which of the seven but he's a major figure - but insists that Mohammed, peace be upon him, was the final authority in terms of revelation. Except that Islam itself has since fractured over the status of disciples of Mohammed, quite vehemently, at which point I bow out because I get very lost over who's who and what the argument's about…

…and I just imagine God sitting there with his head in his hands and sighing 'oh for heaven's sake!'

People's talent for violent disagreement and horrible cruelty has nothing to do with God and everything to do with their desire for very earthly power.

The early schism you mention, by the way, was not just Ishmael splitting off from the Abrahamic community - he and his mother, Hagar, got kicked out into the desert once Sarah got given Isaac and didn't want them around any more. I have to say I thought they got a pretty raw deal - that bit of the bible doesn't even attempt to justify this startlingly callous treatment of them - but perhaps it might help to explain why it took a few millennia for the Arabic nations to be reconciled to the monotheistic model.
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Countrymouse - you are one impressive country mouse! All this talk got me digging out my bible - and after blowing off the dust, thumbing through it. A long time ago I committed to reading the bible cover to cover. I didn't make it very far as my copy is full of thy's and thou's, doust, and shant's...is there a modern version that's still true to the original but easier to read - that you can recomend?
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Crumbs, don't ask me! It's the King James every time for me because it's the resonance of the 17th century vernacular that sticks best in my head. Not that I'd want to give a false impression: my main reason for looking anything up in the Bible nowadays is pursuit of a crossword answer. But seriously, if you're looking for a good contemporary version, why not call up (or look up online) your nearest college with a theology department and ask them for something accurate but readable?
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