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… is a jealous God, visiting the sins of the fathers upon the sons unto the third and the fourth generation of them that hate me, but showing mercy and lovingkindness unto the thousandth generation of them that love me and obey my commandments...

I can't see myself quoting the 21st century rendition of that from memory in thirty years' time - you can't beat it. And no I don't want to know how many errors I've made!
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One of the most readable translation of the Bible is the New International Version. It is also a reliable translation. The English of the KVJ has a lot of beauty, but the reading level is way to high and many of the words are archaic.
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Thanks, cmagnum! I am dyslexic and for some reason just stuggle with the flow in the more traditional versions - by the time I get to the end of a sentence I've lost the meaning of what I've read and have to reread - takes forever! I have the same problem with iambic pentameter.
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Gotquestionsorg?
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Just passing this on because many of you will get a kick out of it, not because I believe it. Lol.

"Believing in your own hallucinations is called insanity.
Believing in someone else's delusions is called religion".

...
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Well ill throw my opinion in as the token believer. I think the first thing is understanding who God is by definition. God is just, merciful, forgiving,compassionate and loving. If you make up your own ideas and worship what you think God is like then you aren't worshipping Him but worshipping yourself. So you need to understand Gods nature in spirit and truth. After that comes faith to believe he knows what's best. No one wants to be old and suffer. But we as humans have found so many ways to keep old people alive past their time that they do experience suffering. Also out world is not perfect. We live in a fallen, broken world. That is why we need a savior release us from it.
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Country mouse and Rain mom: I found remanding the New International Verson is helpful and for fun I have a Rogets Thersaurs on the side. Unbelievable the variants one can find
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Thanks for the readsble bible suggestions. I found a site on line that offers many versions/editions of the bible and in several languages - for free, yeah! Best of all I didn't have to give any information at all - the bible info/choices is easy to access - so no hardcore bible thumpers calling/mailing etc. If I find myself sticking with the reading, I'll probably hit a bookstore. We shall see.
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The Bible gives me so many wonderings, maybe it is because I am an unfavored child myself. Like I wonder why god preferred Abel's lamb to Cain's fruit. Cain was a farmer and Abel a shepherd. That didn't see fair. :-/

And then there was Job, who held up under all that adversity. But everyone else around him died. I had a lot of pity on the family of Job who paid such a high price. I hope that they did get a place in Heaven for what they went through on earth.

I am so simple and naive. When I read about orders to go wipe out all the people living in a land, including women and children, I don't know what to think. I'm glad we didn't have that in the New Testament.

I find myself wondering as I read or hear things from the Bible -- how much is God and how much is Man writing? And I find myself wondering why we spend so much time worshiping Jesus when he said not to praise him, but the one who sent him. I do like that. It is so simple and undistorted.

I have no idea what Heaven is like. Maybe we are fully spirit then and live in a Collective, sort of like the Changelings do on their planet in Star Trek. I just hope I don't get cast into a lake of fire because I have trouble with the Old Testament.
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For those who believe that the Christian God is just, merciful, compassionate, loving, kind, etc:

How do you reconcile this with Biblical accounts like these acts, attributed to God, but hardly compassionate or in any similar category?

1. Abraham's near sacrifice of his own son because God commanded it. Killing one's son today would be a felony and possibly a capital crime.

2. The massive loss of human and animal life during the 40 day flood. What harm did the animals do to deserve to be drowned?

3. The murder of the first born of Egyptian families to convince the Pharoah to allow the Israelites to leave. That might even be considered an act of terror because it's a mass murder.

4. The vicious treatment of Joseph by his brothers.

5. Turning Lot's wife into a pillar of salt, if that's even possible, which I doubt.

There are other instances as well. I raise these not to provoke conflict but to point out that the concept of a loving god which ignores these acts for which he is allegedly responsible hardly reflects compassion.

How do the believers here reconcile this inconsistency?
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Oi! Who are you calling an unbeliever? I believe in God. I have however discarded all conviction that any one school has a monopoly on Him. And I'm not alone - what's good enough for Pope Benedict, given his recent announcement that Jews do not require salvation through Christ to achieve eternal life and ought not to be proselytised, is certainly good enough for me.

You cannot hope to understand God - when the Church says things like "in knowledge of whom standeth our eternal life" that knowledge is not the same as understanding. It is an awareness, the 'fear' as in 'fear of God', that God is in the world and you had better conduct yourself accordingly. That is also why in most traditions God's name is unpronounceable: this makes the point that God's true nature is not within human beings' grasp to understand.

Unfortunately, the repetitive tendency of one religion after another, or its leaders rather, since time began to claim that it has cracked the puzzle and hit on the only acceptable approach to belief has been responsible for some - nothing like all, there have been great atheist murderers and tyrants too - of humanity's very worst behaviour through the ages. But it's when people depart from their founding principles that this happens, not when they keep to them. There is no commandment to burn anyone at the stake, and as far as I know no sura that recommends the beheading of elderly archaeologists or the suicide of teenage girls. It's the use of faith as a political weapon that leads to these grotesque perversions.
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GardenArtist - I've been meaning to comment on your first post for a while - but keep getting side tracked (story of my life!). Anyhow - the things you mentioned made me wonder if you taught college level History of Western Civilization in Oregon in the 80's! You sounded so much like my
professor! She taught that religion and God was a man made phenomenon - to explain away hurricanes, drought, plague etc and later to control the regular folk which in turn gave power and riches to "the church" - pointing out in medieval and Elizabethan times that popes, bishops and the like wielded more power than royalty. The hope of heaven and fear of hell kept people in line. When she talked about the bible being the greatest work of man made fiction ever produced I was like "WHAT?". While it was revolutionary to me I half expected God to smite the the building at any moment.
So I begin my reading of the bible with an open mind - but already know it's likely at best a loose interpretation of reality - I'm mean, does anyone really think Noah lived to be well over 500 years old?
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Rain,

That's exactly why I'm a recovering Catholic -- and I don't mean drugs. A nun once asked me to define "faith." My answer was "continuing to believe in something even when reason tells you not to." She said my comment was borderline heretical. I said "If God gave me a brain, I'm sure He meant for me to use it. ... How can I build faith without the freedom to ask questions?"

Compared to a lot of Bible-thumpers in my Bronx neighborhood, I don't overvalue my place on Earth. As a spiritual being having a human experience, my moral compass is naturally set to be a better man, a better person, and a better human being. I don't need a church or some religious formula to do these things, because my religion is to LOVE & RESPECT everyone else as long as they don't put their hands on me.

Here in America, organized religion is a business. Too many holy rollers dictating what to think, how to behave, what to do with your money, even what to wear where. Here in the Bronx, many of my neighbors go to church to hook up with married people; yet believe that condoms are a sin. ... Practicing what you preach is a mere ideal.

There's nothing wrong with having doubts and shaking the foundations of Christendom every now and then. At least you're being true to yourself. When you're a kind, self-respecting person with an even bigger heart there's no need to be validated by others. The snag we run into sometimes is that our logic threatens
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... other people's belief systems. Could you just imagine realizing that everything we've believed in with every fiber of our being doesn't make sense? That we've been conditioned to believe and obey without letting our brains do the work?

In our country, there's freedom of religion but no freedom from it.
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CM, if you're referring to my post on what I see as the disjunction between a loving and violent god, I meant no offense, nor did I intend to infer anyone is an unbeliever. I apologize if I offended.

RainMom, I did tutor various subjects at a community college level but never actually taught as a professor at a college level. I did take a lot of history courses - I loved them! I found it so fascinating and it put so many things about life, politics, countries, wars and more into perspective.

I would agree with your professor on everything you wrote that she taught. This is I think how history from the beginning of time helps people see the commonalities in religions, as well as the differences.

I've always thought that the Greek gods were the most like human beings - fighting, carousing, loving, manipulating...they weren't so elevated and perfect that they were beyond belief. It was more as if they each had their own turfdoms, rather than onmipotency.

What's also interesting, if not fascinating are the cultures that worshipped women in various ways, whether it was as mothers and givers of life, or as deities.

Eddie, I fully, totally agree that organized religion is a business. I also consider it institutionalized as well as organized. And it's a business with generous tax breaks.
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Now bring it!
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GA, by viewing those sections as part of a history that has by now been through at least three translations over many centuries, and by picturing the scene…

1. "Well now would you look at that! A sheep! Phew now I won't have to sacrifice Isaac after all…" (or possibly he'd been thinking Isaac was turning into a right clingy little brat and could he please have Ishmael back? - but then relented.)

2. If everyone had listened, and spent less time mocking Noah and more getting busy with a few more arks, maybe we'd still have unicorns. But I don't think animals ever do do anything to deserve their fate, do they? Just happens.

3. I do have trouble with, but then I have trouble with rather a lot of the haggadah. "God hardened Pharoah's heart" - why??? It is somewhat easier to imagine internal wrangling in the advanced Egyptian bureaucracy and the overturning of labour relations concessions, don't you think? - but administrative problems in the civil service of the time wouldn't make anything like as gripping a story.

4. How would you have liked Joseph for a brother? And what kind of idiot tells his much larger and more numerous brothers that he had a dream in which they all bowed down to him? He did do quite a lot to deserve what he got.

5. It's a seismically active region. Look at Herculaneum and you can see what they meant. She should have done as she was told and run as fast as her little legs would carry her.

My personal suspicion is that when a particular person says that God made him do it, if you listen carefully you might hear a metaphysical voice saying "What?! No I didn't!" Or, in other cases, "Good idea of mine, I thought."

And as for the Book of Esther - ! Read between the lines and you've got an absolute blockbuster of love, pride, power and death there. Most unsuitable for children.

I know I'm on dangerous ground here, and that there are many people who do consider the Bible to be if not physically written by (how, exactly?) then directly received from God. And I am happy for them if that is how they best make sense of their faith. But I don't see it as a requirement for faith. It is history and prophesy and a valuable account of human development, including its regrettable aspects - and you can learn from bad examples as well as good ones, after all.
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Rainmom, 'think I will hit a bookstore'?? Does this mean you are going to rob a bookstore to get your bible, or is this just another misinterpretation?
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No sendme2help - I would pay for my bible like any good heathen would. What other misinterpretations do you mean?
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When God created Adam and Eve, they were perfect. Perfect people do not grow old, have diseases, etc.. They were made in the likeness of God - meaning that they have the freedom to choose. They can have all the fruits in the garden except for one tree. See, they have the freedom to obey God or disobey Him. Freedom of choice. Freedom of decision. The serpent came, and put doubts into Eve's mind. She in turn, did the same to Adam. They chose to disobey God. They were thrown out of the garden of Eden, and now lived an imperfect life - where the end result is death. As you look at the genealogical tree in the Bible, each of the descendants had less and less length of life. Because as the years went by, those born were moving away from the original perfect body that Adam & Eve had. Until now, today, we're filled with cancer, dementia, etc... to a life expectancy of about age 100 and less. So, yes, it is believable that Noah had lived up to 500 years.

You know what's fascinating is the time of Babylon, etc.. when the Bible mentions the Nephilims (giants). These giants are the off-springs of the kicked out angels ('fallen angels' by others) and a human parent. The offsprings came out to be giants. It reminds me so much of those mythology stories we read in middle school. You know, Hercules, etc... Humans with super strength...
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Here's my last comment on this post: If you believe in it, it's real.
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Eddie - your last comment reminded me of an incident in my life - I posted this on another thread somewhere, sorry for the repeat - I had a boss that in a discussion regarding an employee said "a persons perception is their reality". I replied "no, reality is reality". It took me several years to realize the absolute arrogance of my statement. What I was saying was MY reality was The reality - not getting that really it was merely my own perception. Know what I mean? On a side note - if the spirit moves you (joking) I hope you'll post again. I alway appreciate your straight forward approach to all your comments and advice. To me it's always refreshing to have someone get to the point, lay it on the line, in a no BS manner. Plus a little humor is always a bonus.
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Straight to the point-instead of concentrating on the negativities of life, focus and embrace the good things in life.
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Ah but RetireArmy, where's the humor?
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Eddie I knew it: there IS a Santa Claus
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How about this Rainmom........

As an atheist non believer I've got my headstone all figured out. It will say:

ALL DRESSED UP WITH NO PLACE TO GO

Sure hope I'm wrong........
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Pretty good Windyridge. But brings up another point - why do people dress up their deceased loved ones - does heaven have a dress code?
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AND - does that mean you're stuck wearing that same outfit for eternity?
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Rainmom, you are getting too too funny, lol.
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I'm a happy atheist. I don't think I ever had a "crisis of faith" -- I just came to a point where the conflicting pictures of god didn't really make sense to me. I was teaching Sunday school when I came to this conclusion and I told the youth director that I would finish out the school year but not continue beyond that. She begged me to stay on. "I'm afraid if you stop teaching we'll lose you for good." Hmmm ... yeah, that was my intention. :) In high school I went with a friend to a very fundamentalist event. Since I was not one who stood up as being saved, an elder (?) came to talk to me afterwards. She told me how wonderful heaven would be, if only I were saved. I asked if my Jewish friend Becky would be there. Well, no, she admitted, a Jew couldn't go to heaven. I politely told her I'd pass, too. She nearly cried trying to convince me, but I haven't changed my mind to this day. That kind of exclusivity has never appealed to me.

My point is just that I didn't "lose faith" because of some crisis in my life, or some horrid catastrophe. I simply didn't believe what didn't make sense to me. I'm not intolerant of other people's beliefs, and I never proselytize for atheism. I've given it a lot of thought over a number of years, and I am content where I am at.
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