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sharynmarie, thanks for sharing that. Sounds like your mother was and is very complicated. Have fun putting the Christmas tree away. I need to get the lights off of mine and then get it out of the house for the city to pick up. My day has started late once again for I found it difficult to fall asleep last night. In a few minutes I'll go see my psychiatrist.
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Cmag~I can relate to the lack of affection and nurturing from a mother with a personality disorder. My mother was never diagnosed with a PD but I have talked with a couple therapists who said that they cannot diagnose her without spending time talking with her, but they did say it sounded like she fell into that group of mental illness and that she could also possibly be bi-polar along with it. I think she has paranoid personality disorder because of her accusations, suspicious thinking, lack of trust with family members that was present when we were growing up and even later when all us kids had left home. With all the grandchildren, my mother could be loving towards them but only when they were little and she could not relate to her own sons or grandsons. Once the grandchildren got through the toddler ages, she stopped relating to them, no more hugs or any type of loving behavior. With her it was as long as she got unconditional love from them (the way a pet gives love and attention) she could give love and attention back. She never developed a close relationship with any of us kids or her grandchidren. I have noticed that if my kids give her a hug, she accepts it, but with my sis and me, she pushes us away. It boggles my mind that my mother was able to develop relationships with a couple of ladies she worked with for many years...they think very highly of mom and tell me how they just love her to pieces. Gotta go start the day, put the Christmas tree away for another year. My cat will be disappointed as he loves to hide under it and attack when we walk by, Lol!!Have a good day everyone.
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emjo, I often wonder about the impact of prayer upon various personality disorders in the sense of maybe prayer and fasting for those are tough disorders to crack. I've often heard that many women with borderline personality disorders are in our hospital mental wards when they need medical help and the men with borderline personality disorders are in mainly in prison. I agree that narcissistic mums are tough on their children! Before her major stroke and being so doped up to keep her stable, my mum was one, but she was worse when I was younger as we've discussed. The borderline mother is rough also and has a strong narcissistic streak. My wife and my SIL are divided about what their mother is. One says narcissist and the other says borderline. In light of the book, Understanding the Boderline Mother, I would say that my MIL is a combination of the queen and the witch borderline mother for her worshipfulness is an exact copy of 'mommy dearest', etc. need I say more. My wife wonders if her mother ever really loved her dad. I would question this too given how enslaved he was by her. He had been a shy 'mommy's boy' whom she just took over completely. They did not have an adult-adult relationship. He was a very intelligent and nurturing man, but she lacked any nurturing cell in her entire being from what I've seen and what I've heard about how she related with her daughters. I don't think narcissist or borderlines are capable of giving love and nurture except to appear to do so for the sake of what they can get out of the person. Dang, my mother even admitted when I was almost 30 that she knew that she had not met my emotional needs as a child or as a teenager. Then she claimed she would do better with her grandchildren which sad to say she didn't. I don't think she knew how to given the kind of mother she had and the overall home environment. Her mother never really built a close relationship with any of us grandchildren. Prayers continue.

Prayers, love and hugs to all and to all a good night.
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Margeaux, thanks for asking. My wife is doing very well with PT and they hope to soon have her free from the walker and using a cane. I'm on a roller coaster lately that I don't understand other than maybe I've tried to do too much too soon, but anyhow, I returned to the YMCA Wednesday night after being absent for the last 2 or years. I went around 7 pm and did the same thing on Thursday night. However, each night, I found it impossible to fall asleep and Thursday night was the worst, that is 5 am and had to get up between 8-9 to take wifey to the PT. Friday, I was stiff and sore plus tired. I don't remember when I went to bed Friday night, but I was groggy all day Sat. which I spent most of in bed. I have paid the price of two nights of poor sleep. On top of all that I've had some repeated flashbacks from my past. Last night, I went to bed at 12 and got up today at 12:30 pm. I did return to the Y tonight and tried to not over do it. Emotionally, I've been too easily irritated by things and have just wanted to be in my man cave a whole lot which I've done. I'm not sure that I can blame all of this up and down on my bipolar disorder alone. I'm going to see what my psychiatrist thinks of this when I see her in the morning.
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thx envision. My mum has borderline personality disorder and is narcissistic, so her emotional range is not normal. Anytime I give her attention, it is seen by her as an opportunity to play games for her benefit. It is her mental illness. I do not believe she has the same feelings as normal people do -for example as you did when you were cut off. I really do not think she suffers much when she doesn't hear from me. She just gets mad becaise I am not doing what she wants me to do, and then finds someone else to give her attention, I do not remember any warm hugs or touches from my mother in my whole childhood, nor any kind words. She just did not have it in her. I see in your profile your mum was your best friend. Mine was my worst enemy, and still is in some ways. She has done and said things to me that are terrible. It was a nightmare growing up. If you have not experienced that, I know you cannot understand. People with personality disorders ruin relationships, and narcissistic mothers are very hard on their children, especially their daughters. I do appreciate prayers, always, and continue to pray for my mum and sister.
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emjo, prayer for you and your mom... consider sending her a nice card in the mail, every now & then. on the level she has capable of, i am sure she love you very much, and will suffer too much if she never hears from you. i know when my sister was upset with me, she didn't speak to me for about 2 years. i didn't even know why she was angry. i found out later that it was because she was jealous of the time my mom and I spent together. well, that being said, i guess my point is, it was very painful for me when my sister cut off communication completly. :)
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thx alabama - I will. The support here helps. Sounds like dirty pool to me - - hiring someone who did not interview you. Could this decision ensure that you get to visit with your mum? Do you have any thoughts as to why your sib is like this? Brandywine mentioned her sib was a warden - sounds like that. Unreal, cruel and sick! ((((((((((((hugs)))))))))))
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emjo Stay strong. My mother's Health Care POA papers require 2 doctors to declare incompentency, and sib only had documentation of the one that SHE hired and will pay for out of my mother's estate. Still waiting on clerk for decision. All other doctors have said competent so she has to hire one (who did not interview me, by the way) to do her dirty work. OH WELL. I have had no visits with my mother and one phone call since Nov 24th. Unreal and cruel.
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Thx cat. Mother WILL be kept at a distance. No question of that, and it anyone doesn't like it their email be blocked too. It was only a matter of time, and the opportune moment. Truly I wish it wasn't needed, but my body is telling something I cannot ignore. Prayers much appreciated ♥
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Hey Joan: Sending you some white light. Glad you sent the letter and I hope you can keep mom at the necessary distance. I really admire and respect your insight. Get well my friend. Love and Hugs, Cat
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thanks MyWitsEnd - another time it was undercooked porridge. Yes, I should immediately drive 5 hrs and discuss boiled potatoes with the social worker there, She makes everything into a Federal case, elder abuse, etc. Is home care perfect - no, of course not. They have too much to do, and she is pretty healthy. They do rush through their jobs, but she is well fed, and in a beautiful apartment. Some of the home care staff are recently from other countries and may not be familiar with our ways. More than likely she is watching them with a crirical eye, and it was not done exactly as she thinks it should be. She spends her days looking for things that are "not right", thinking about them, and making them into federal cases, and also seeing plots behind them.e.g. - this was done in order to force her out of her ALF. It is all part of a plan.... as if people there didn't have enough to do without spending their time thinking up plots. It is laughable, but what she writes me is not, and also triggers past hurts. My only solution is to give myself space/ distance and if necessary cut off the emails. The ALF and/or hospital can still call me if she really is in trouble. Like my health should suffer for improperly boiled potatoes. This is the pattern of her lifetime. We could not go out for a Sunday afternoon drive without her finding something wrong and having a temper tantrum, and blaming someone. Growing up with her was horrible. She hasn't changed -well she may have mellowed a bit, but not enough.
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Emjo-Sorry to hear you're not feeling well. Stress definately affects us physically. You have to do what you have to do for your own health. I had to laugh though at the home health aid not knowing how to boil potatoes. You're supposed to fix that?by all means, drop everything and get on that! Good grief. No pun intended :).
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((((((((((((envision))))))) thank you so much for that. I agree. In the past counsellors have told me to divorce my mother and sis. Recent ones see that I have good relationships, had a good career (retired now). have my life in order, and am healthy in many ways, but my "gut" instincts tell me that the stress from my mother is a root cause for this illness. It flared up "out to control" (and doesn't that phrase describe her) when I moved her out of her apartment into her first ALF, and the 5 ring circus has not stopped since then, nor has the infection.

Thank you again . Hope things are more reasonable with you and your dad. (((((((hugs))))) Joan
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Thanks sharyn, I am feeling much better already. I have had no energy the past few days, but have cleaned the kitchen counters, have the oven on clean, am thawing the turkey carcass for soup, and have plans to go grocery shopping. I am sure the stress from mother is significant in this, and if I have to cut her out of my life altogether I will. It is not that I want to, but I may have to for my own survival. I have emailed the specialist and told her what is happening, and will call her tomorrow if I don't get an answer pretty quickly. I am still reading the book "When the Body says No", and it has opened my eyes as to how much these dysfunctional relationships affect out health. I ordered a new book
"Will I Ever Be Good Enough?: Healing the Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers" by Karyl McBride. Of course, I know the answer to the question. For my narcissistic mother I will never be good enough, do enough, and so on. But one review mentioned that the book leads you through a healing process and to the point where you may want to cut contact. That is the part I am interested in. IU inow I am getting closer alklk the time. It is not out of anger, but self preservation - love of self, which has to balance love of others. Hope you have a great day. (((((((((hugs))))))) back to you!
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a counselor once told me "If you think something is killing you, it probably is."
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Joan~we must have been posting at the same time. I am sorry things are escalating with your mother and the infection. Yes, you need to put your foot down and takecare of you first. Prayers, positive thoughts going your way. Keep us posted and I hope the stronger meds clear things up without side effects. You sound like you are feeling better already. Hugs to you!!
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Alabama~ I am so sorry you and your mother are being drug thru a court battle. I hope you are able to state your issues and concerns before the judge and that you make sure that if your sister gets guardianship that you will be able to visit your mother.
Riz~You are not responsible for rehabilitating your brother. Is this the brother that you tried to help once before by letting him live with you and your husband? Please don't feel guilty about not helping. He has choices to make for his life and only he can make the right choice. You and your husband deserve your time together now.
Margeaux~For the life of me I can't understand people who will not acknowledge people when they come in their home. My husband has some family members like that too. I can't help but feel it is because there is strong control issues in his family. Sounds like you are doing the right thing by distancing yourself from their dysfunction.
Joan~Sorry you are not feeling well on top of all that is going with your mother. The rubber room has space available if you need it, Lol!! You have such a healthy attitude and you have distanced yourself quite well from your mother, but it is still difficult to deal with the behaviors of a narcissist even from a distance. If my mother had not developed dementia, my relationship with her would be very distant and limited. Your health is important so continue to focus on that and I hope you are feeling better soon.
Hugs to everyone!!
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Well, I sent the letter. Last nuight.this morning, I had 5 manipulative emails pressuring me, saying she needed me to get involved, that she had told everyone that I was handling things, to handle this latest thing, ( the homecare last night did not know how to boil potatoes apparently - motter is quite capable of showing her, though I question whether or not it is true) pretending that she does not know how to handle it, and similar matters, wanting me to contact this one and that one. So I said no, and sent her the letter. I said that I would drop being POA and block her emails if necessary. and that my health was affected by the stress of her pressuring, then accusing me etc etc, and that I could not be involved.
I have greater resolve with this as it became obvious to me last night that the safe meds I am on are not working anymore - that was the reason I have been so fatigued, had cramps and was sweaty at night. The bug must have mutated. I got up and took one of the pills I was on before, and within hours I started to feel better. Praise God! I have energy again. Woot woot!. I am not happy about the safe meds not being effective anymore, as the one I am back on can be hard on the liver. I have emailed the specialist and asked where do go from here. Prayers would be appreciated for a once, and for all answer to this infection. I do believe getting out from under the stress of mother is part of the answer. When I was reading the emails my first thought was "This makes me sick to my stomach" I guess it does, and I have to protect myself. Thanks for the support. ♥ hugsd and prayers. Joan
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Going to catch up in chunks here - my cold got worse, sinus infection, triggered fibromyalgia -I am sure the stress of mother contributed and she is in a roll again. I'm backing off right now.
sharyn sounds like you have a good plan. Praise God for answered prayers. I so believe in prayer and see results in my life. Things are coming together for this stage for you anyway. I do hope the antidepressant helps. Guess we have to keep praying that she signs all the forms you need her to. Glad you had a good day with your hubby.
margeaux -glad you had a quiet new years - me too and glad you are staying detached.Sounds like those young peopke have no social skills at all, and that will hurt them in life, You are right one size does not fit all women, and sometimes all we want is someone to listen to us, and be supportive. I do think there are a lot of narcissists in your family. My dd can display those type if manners -or lack of too.
book - educating yourself helps so much, I find. We are all learning all the time, and from one another - we all need ME time
austin you are so right -you can't change others, only yourself
Riz - hi -absolutely no way can you be your bro's caregiver. You are NOT mean, just realistic and protective of yourself and your family. Don't let guilt creep in here. You are not running a rehab center and you are not responsible for him. I hope he can get the help he needs- as you say -far away. Stay strong!
alabama - so sorry to hear your mum broke her shoulder, but good that she was in court. It must have been horrible sitting in court, and listening to your sis. Your mum must be considered to be competent. Let us know what finally comes down from the clerk.
Well I wrote a letter to mother stating my concerns and limits if I am to stay as POA, but didn't send it. She is off in another tangent, so I will wait till she demands my involvement there she has already started hinting at it - and, use the last time as an example. Her doctor retired at age 80 - good thing I think, and she will see her new doc tomorrow. I expect she will not get on as well with the new one, but we will see.
Hope everyone is having a good weekend. My new year's resolution is to improve some aspect of my life in 2013 - to have a better year. Dealing better with mother is one of the top items.
♥, hugs and prayers Joan
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Spent whole day last week in court as evil sibling works to have mom declared incompetent. Sadly, my mother had fallen the day before and broke her shoulder, but Mom was in court, sleeping the entire time. The last recommendation from her guardian ad litem was financial person, no guardian of the person, because evil sibling is blocking me from visiting and mom wants to see both of us What a mess, but my narcissist sibling had no problem sitting on the stand and stating lie after lie after lie. Unreal. Waiting on final from clerk. SO sad to see the family laundry hung out for all to see. Dirty Dirty.
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Hi everyone!!

Today has been a kick back day for hubby and me. He went to Costco to stock up on some staple items and I went to the grocery store to get lasagna pasta and cheese. I made a big pot of Minestrone soup the other day and a big pot of marinara sauce. I over did the veggies for both pots and today added more beef broth to the soup and made up 6 containers to freeze for mom the rest I froze of us. We had spaghetti last night so today with the left over sauce, I am making lasagna and will take that over with the soup to moms later. To answer your question Margeaux, I am doing well considering all that has been going on. I does tear me up emotionally when I think how my mom is all twisted up with so much anxiety and fear. It reminds of when I was so depressed in my 30's and would get so paralyzed with anxiety that I couldn't function. When you add Alz and a personality disorder to the mix it must be horrible for mom. I am feeling good about the situation at this point. Sis told me last night she was literally exhausted for being so patient with mom yesterday. She doesn't have the patience I do with mom so it is a real struggle for her. Sis did say that it was a good afternoon with mom and she was able to joke with her a little. I am so glad sis and I can work together even tho sis can frustrate me with her strict rule following (like mom) with no grey areas to the rules. Next Wednesday is the appt. for mom's dog to get groomed and it is my dad's 86th birthday. After taking the dog to the groomers, we will stop at the cemetery to visit dad. Mom hasn't been out there in quite a while. Enjoy the weekend everyone and hugs to all!!
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Riz, I wouldn't either. He has so many chances to straighten up. He could have done that when he was staying with you. Remember, he's an adult now. Our actions dictate what kind of life we find ourselves in. Just as I have the option to seek therapy to help me (which I decline at the moment), your brother also had these options to Improve himself. Unfortunately, he may never learn to grow up and admit his past mistakes and Do Something about it. And I'd rather you be mean and stand your ground on NO, than to feel sorry for him and welcome him back into your life and cause havoc. Let his loyal son handle his father....I think that's a Very Large wishful thinking that loyal son would settle his father in another country. =)
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Well, back to the dysfunctional thread! Found out yesterday that my brother gets out of jail on the 17th. One of his sons (the only one that will have anything to do with him) is in coming in from out of town and I'm hoping he gets his dad settled far away... Another country would even be better. He lived with us for a year -almost destroyed my relationship with my mom (did for a couple years) and threatened my husband. He's got psych issues and no way do I want to be his caregiver! I feel so mean but I just can't go through that again....
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Margeaux~I think it may be too soon to tell if the antidepressant is working. Right before I got to mom's yesterday, she received a call from a company that works with PG&E offering a free service by enrolling with them to reduce your monthly bill. She went into panic mode over it because she just doesn't understand. I called them back when I got there since I thought they might be calling because she didn't pay her bill in Nov and was late paying in Dec. I told her everything was ok not too worry. When I got back to my house, I saw where she had called in the morning regarding the call from PG&E and her message was very urgent and panicked. I talked with my sister last night saying I thought it might be a good idea to have mom's calls forwarded to either her phone or mine and we could let her know that Nancy or Val or whoever calls that she needs to call them that way we can avert these business calls that are causing her to panic, but sis didn't like that idea thinking mom would figure it out.

Today has been a good day with mom. I took her out earlier to get a hair cut, made an appt. for next Wednesday for the dog to get groomed, and I sat with the dog and got her somewhat combed out. Her fur was really matted, especially her ears, and we waited for my sister to get there. I asked my mom if she would do me a favor and sign these forms. I went over them with her explaining what each form was for. My sister stayed out of the kitchen while I was talking with mom about the forms. She said she was confused, didn't know if she should sign them. She looked them over and I had to explain about 4 times what they were for and she finally signed them. No arguments, it took about 15 minutes to get her to sign them but it is done. The power of prayer works wonders and just being patient with her, teasing her and telling her that we all have to sign these kinds of forms, I know they are a pain in the A$$,etc. My sister is with her now for the afternoon, she will take her to bank to draw cash, take her to pay the homeowners insurance. All the junk mail mom had been hoarding, my sister found a $25 gift card from PG&E for saving energy by not using her air conditioner too much last summer. Sis is taking mom to Wal-Mart (using the gift card) to get some sweat pants to wear around the house since she is always so cold, and I gave sis mom's medicine for later so I don't have to go back over. All in all a good day for everyone here.
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Avidreader,

Welcome to this thread. It has got to be terrible for your mother to treat you this way when you are helping her. May I suggest that you contact your local Area on Aging, or other such agencies to assist you with various aspects of your mom's health. I notice that you've written you help her, so does that mean your mother lives alone? Maybe if you could find some outside help, then you could take a break for yourself, also. Much Love & Light! Margeaux
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Cmagnum,
Just a small clarification: I was talking about my husband.
Margeaux
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Emjo,

I read your post about spotting the narcissists. I'm really happy for you that you put your foot down, and didn't change your plans that evening! I too am coming into the reality, that my sister, her youngest daughter, SIL and her youngest also are narcissists. They remind me of a dog chasing it's own tail!! HAAAAAH!

After my sister had called to give me an update about our brother and his discomfort about Christmas Day, she invited my husband and me to join her, the daughters, grandson and one of their husbands New Years Day to watch a game and some lunch.. We opted out. I wanted to take a walk on the beach w/my husband and feel new energies. So we did!! I didn't change my plan. We passed an outdoor restaurant, and saw some friends there. So we joined them for a toast during a beautiful sunset. It had beautiful colors of orange and violet, amidst some clouds. It was a great way to start 2013! Good vibes, I'm all about that! Thanks for the reminder, Much Love & Hugs! Margeaux
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Sharynmarie,

How are you?
I am so happy for you that finally a doctor seems to really be working in your favor with regards to your mom. Yes, just from your post when the eating is affected and it's evident from their weight, this is so telling. I remember that before we knew mom had ALZ, she was the one looking and taking care of her older sister. Mom never was the cook either. They both used to eat daily at a senior center they belonged to. But once my aunt was really more in decline w/mobility, most of the senior center activity came to an abrupt halt. This meant, mom was having to be more in charge of their eating plan at home. Well, mom who has always been the smaller and slender one, started to look very frail. I think this is also when she took a couple falls. So anyway, the things that are happening to your mother are really all those signs.
I know it's very recent, but have you noticed any change in her mood given the anti-depressant? I hope for your sake, and of course hers this starts to work positively.
I really admire that your family is pulling together on this front. Maybe your brother should have a talk with my siblings about teaching their kids something about responsibility! This is really great, that he wants his son to pay rent.
You and yours are totally in my thoughts! Hugs to you, Much Love, Margeaux
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Cmagnum,

How are you and your wife doing?
I hope both of you are well.
Yes, I do agree with you that some men can be the fixers.
Some times in the past, I felt that if I was sharing some of my feelings especially about mom and her ALZ, I must admit that he didn't know mom for much time very well, before she was diagnosed. So if ever say I've mentioned I' sense a real decline, which I can see because I've known her all of my life, he deflect to something like....."Well, she looks good." Even though I realize his intentions are good, I was somewhat disappointed, because really what I wanted was someone to listen to me, and not respond with anything, other than some good old moral support. "The Art of LIstening." It's truly a special thing. Some people have it, and some people do not. But I really think there is some truth to what you have written about the distinction between men and women in this respect. Thanks , and Happy New Years to you and yours, Much Love, Margeaux
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Book,
Some of us I think would like to ask for our husband's, mates advice about certain things. At least I do, especially about certain areas that my husband has more experience about. But definitely, my husband doesn't have that in the area of siblings, nor caregiving at all.
The other part about this, is that my husband many times gives unsolicited advice about matters that although he tries, doesn't have enough experience about either.
In my sister's case, she goes round and round w/her problems discussing them, and there's plenty of anger, many times. So one size does not fit all women either. Margeuax
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