When is enough enough with narcissistic parents?

So - it has been since January since I have seen my mother now - went on Wednesday - and all I can really say is - Same as it ever was.... She started in on me right away - tried to steer the conversation to the kids - her grandkids - thought she may be interested in them...wrong again Karen! So - after her badgering me about getting her out of there - and I was stupid to not understand her or her crazy emails I get daily - when she tossed the lunch I bought her in my lap - I left. At least it was still in the bag! She again wanted to drag me out to see the "crazy, stupid people" that are residence there - when I refused - it just went downhill even more. Then last night my husband and I watched August-Osage County with Meryl Streep and Julie Roberts....wow - lets all watch our mothers on the big screen! Hit a little too close to home.

Thanks again for everyone being here to share - it is so nice to know that I am not the only one with a mother in name only-

personally, I doubt the narc is suffering. only suffering they ever do or have is when the victim finally tells them to 'shove it' and leaves.
but then, that falls into the category of 'why do they want to leave? boo hoo boo hoo. I did nothing to provoke this. they must have left because of x,y,or z. never me."

It never ends until they pass away. A week ago I I booked a paratransit bus to take her to the hairdresser (she can't sit up or stand -a narc with parkinsons, dementia and stroke) and wasted most of the day following the bus, waiting for her and getting her back to the nursing home again.

Today I went shopping and on the way back dropped off oranges, apple juice and grapes. First rebuke out of her mouth was that I hadn't been there for a few days. Then came the whining, demands and complaints. In particular she wants her phone connected again. She agreed to have it disconnected some time ago as she can hardly speak and when she does it's garbled. I can barely understand her face to face and she is unable to dial a phone in any event. There's a public phone she can use and the office holds $300 for her to spend as she wishes. She wants her dentures relined and I'm looking into getting someone to come to the nursing home as even a short bus trip makes her nauseous.

I wheeled her to lunch and left. I won't be back again for another week. It makes me so miserable.

Just want to thank all of those who have written about this. It has been a real blessing to know others are out there like me facing this situation with my mother. You all keep me sane with your encouragement and sharing.
Today was especially difficult and then someone shared and I knew I was not in this alone. It is hard for those who don't have this type of person in their life to understand what it does to those of us who do. Especially if it is your parent.
We do not have to take the abuse of the narcissist. We can take care of our needs and not feel guilty. Thanks for all the good advice. Blessings to you all.

sad1daughter -- I saw August Osage County a while ago, and although my mother isn't nearly as monstrous as the mother played by Meryl Streep, I could definitely relate to Julia Roberts when she finally gets away, and doesn't go back! I wanted to cheer.
I had my every 2 weeks-or-so, 5 minute phone call with my mother yesterday. Even 5 minutes on the phone put me in a funk. It's not just her, it's hearing the dementia progressing, which is sad no matter who it is. But she's same as ever. It's impossible to have an honest conversation. I spend all my energy 'deciphering' what it is she's really saying, and it's been that way my whole life. Now that she's literally losing her mind, reading between the lines of what she's saying to get to the truth of the matter just isn't possible.
She's still perfectly capable of ignoring my conversations and implying that I'm not in touch enough, etc. Has she ever called me, just to say hello? Nope. But based on some of your experiences with never ending phone calls and emails, I guess my situation is a blessing.

judda - glad you are finding out that detaching works. Detaching with compassion is the best one can do. It is sad. I agree all that energy and creativity could have been out to much better use.

sad - the less I see mother or her stuff the better. It doesn't seem to do either of us much good I know that distraction only works for a very short while, if at all. It goes downhill fast doesn't it?

twocents - you may be right, other than the "suffering" they do all their lives from being empty inside and having broken relationships. Mother manages to explain all this away, and put herself in a good light. I don't see suffering - more getting mad and indignant. I have

oops - I have seen mother in tears, but the are manipulative ones.

Lynne - I find having anything to do with mother or her things/business is very stressful for me. The old tapes which are

I have a question. Is Narcissitic Personality Disorder really that common. From what I have read, it affects approximately 1% of the population. So the question is, who dx'd the person as Narcissitic. But, it does not matter. If you feel your parent abused you ... real abuse ... and you hate them, then perhaps you should not be caring for them. It certainly can do no good for a person who is very hurt and angry to have to care for a parent who has done so much harm.

oops - I have seen mother in tears, but the are manipulative ones.

Lynne - I find having anything to do with mother or her things/business is very stressful for me. The old tapes which are negative, still play.

music lady - impossible for most who do not have this kind of parent to understand. I found that out early in life. So important to find people who do understand.

looloo - I had three crazy phone calls a day for several months last winter. It was awful. Haven't had one since mother has been hospital (February). It helps. Has she ever called to say Hello, how are you? No, I don't think they are capable of thinking of others, beyond what it will accomplish for them.
Sorry about the broken/ repeat posts. Seems to happen sometimes.

madisson - my mother has Borderline Personality Disorder - diagnosed only officially when she was 96. She is 102 now. I had diagnosed it informally many years before. I thin the personality disorders are underdiagnosed by teir very nature as thse wh sufferer from them do not see that they have

problem - it is everyone else. Not all people who are narcissistic have Narcissistic Personality Disorder. People can have varying degrees of narcissism. Mother is BPD but is also narcissistic. As people with this tendency get older, they often become more narcissistic. I do agree that those who have been abused as a child by a parent, need to draw very firm boundaries regarding caregiving that parent.

maddison, Not all of us totally hate them. No one diagnosed my mom, many of us simply observe and if the elders behavior falls in line with narc behavior, well, they are a narc. If it walks like a duck, quacks, etc. Many years ago, I did get some insight: I wish I still had the letter. Mom worked for a local VA hospital. I guess back then they had to go visit a shrink on occasion: mandatory. Well, she had her appointment and a while letter the letter came. I read it. "Type A personality, results in high quality output of work, but wreaks havoc in personal relationships." (Ours in a nutshell.) Did she look at this and say 'my, I need to get a little help'. ohhh noooo, 'the doctor is paid to say that, he is just writing that to finish his obligation to the job.' Would NEVER admit she was wrong, would NEVER admit she (and we) could have used some help. So, I left.
Myself personally, I am ok with how things are, I can always go downstairs if mom gets too annoying. But then, she is nowhere near what she was when I left many years ago because of her antics.
She wasn't the best mother, not by a long shot, scale of 1-10 I would have to put her around 6. (10 being the best). Many of us are too damaged to go anywhere else, the rubbish is just too deep. We just endure and eventually, it will end. For others, it is simply too scary to plunge out on our own. (Again, I did that back in 1977. It was not easy, I had many lean times but I survived.)
It might take a good shrink to get the real reasons but, we cope.

two cents ¢¢

emjo, looloo, and all who posted these recents I have just received and every word resonated with and taken to heart. Looloo, so hurtful about your mother not calling. Does the phrase "I'll show you" ring a bell? In 1992, I was working 15 hours a day and Mom called at 5 a.m. I was sleeping so hard on a rare day off and asked her, "Could you please call me after 10 a.m.?" She slammed the phone down and never, ever, ever phoned me again. Maddisson, psych statistics are only those reported upward and reach the federal level. So actually it is probably more than 1%. A lot of us never had the privilege of knowing what was wrong in our family, and took responsibility for it in a hundred thousand ways. And as Emjo so eloquently said, it is PTSD for life. I wake throughout nights in sweats and terrors. Yes, it is that bad. Even though Mom passed in 2010 and I know all about fog and distancing -- I hear it all but just can't quite get there. Mom's face still fills the sky. And a lot of us suffer from immuno diseases. I have such a rare form of lymphoma, it is something like .001% occurance on earth. Curious how many of you, when the anger recedes for awhile, are depressed or simply exhausted. I usually rally very greatly for the Great Deeds Mom inculcated in me. Strangely, without the Great Narc, one can be lost, though if there's a friend, they remind you of something you know is in there, just haven't felt in so long. The weird thing about this abuse is that you hate that part of them, yet you feel the compassion of what others may call a saint, yet you also also love them and deep down believe you can help. It is the tie that binds. Letting go is so very hard. It is as though if you were a devout Christian, you let go of the Bible, the very foundation of you.

just to illuminate: mom was ALWAYS a narc. I think my walking out years ago taught her that I can always do it again and that keeps her in line. One reason I don't want to lose my job.

two cents ¢¢

So you have diagnosed these parents yourselves. 2cents: it does not work that way. You are not a psychiatrist. The term narcissist is the flavor of the month you know. Labels. The thing is we need to get over what our parents did and own our own lives. If you want nothing to do with your "narc" parent, then leave them alone and go off on your own. But, if you stay, why complain?
You are not a child and not being forced to stay. You stay for your own reasons, whatever they are. But when so angry at a parent, how good is that for your health or theirs?
Only a psychiatrist can diagnose this, and een then, I wonder at some of the diagnoses.
Type A has nothing to do with Narcissism. That term came along years before and mean people who are very active and goal oriented versus Type B, more laid back ... much more to it, but it is not diagnosis, in and of itself.

Most of these websites such as out of the fog are not profressional. Many of the posters on there are very troubled people who have not "let go" of the past and continue to blame parents for their problems as grown adults.Is not. One cannot go around labeling other people; only a psychiatrist can determine this and even then, there is considerable room for doubt. What I totally don't understand is how grown people still harbor so much anger. I had an abusive childhood, but I don't harbor anger. Victims of victims.

If you were abused, then let them go! Just one thing, a lot is said here about NPD Moms. Did you all know that most narcissists are men? So what about the NPD Dads? Or do they get off scott-free?

Found out a lot about MIL recently and the underlying issues as to why my SIL does not come around. We always thought she was selfish but not any longer. She just doesn’t want to subject her daughter to her grandmothers behavior. We now clearly understand the reasons and that each time she does come around it only opens those childhood wounds. As she was the scapegoat, always getting in trouble for anything she would or wouldn’t do and her brother was the golden child never doing wrong. MIL always had and wanted everybody on puppet strings so that she could control every situation. Unless it pertained to her health, then she refused to care for herself. Hence the reasons why she has diabetes, renal failure, Parkinson’s, & many other ailments that go along with this disease. But our health is something that each of us needs to maintain on our own and she had to do that for herself and never did. SOOOOO it has now become ALL of our problems. She begs for help but when we do, she tells us to leave her alone. She tries to twist things around to make things work to her advantage but only gets furious now that everybody is onto her and calls her bluff. Trying to convince everybody that nobody cares and never shows for her doctors appointments or care meetings and such which is complete BULL because my husband has shown up for her doctor’s appointments recently along with me and my BIL has shown up for her recent care meetings. We have all been at the care meetings at least once. With us all working we are not always able to make it to all of them of which she assumes that we can just take off on the whim. There are many times that appointments creep up at the very last minute and all we can do is follow up with doctors and nurses at the nursing home to find out what occurred. So we do care and are there as much as we possibly can.

MIL had it out with my FIL who is completely and utterly tired of her bossing him around and controlling every situation that he does and is trying to get back to living of which she has kept him from doing for 40+ years. She told him that She hopes he’s happy for leaving her, of which he hasn’t but he knows that the nursing home is the safest and best place for her as he is too old to care for her alone at home any longer. Her feeling is that if he can do all the other things around the house that he wants to do then he can also take care of her. Well he’s in his 80’s so he really can’t and all of the things that he does has a lot of help from the caretaker that she doesn’t see. But then again she really doesn’t care how much she hurts her husband in reality or her children as long as she gets her way then she is happy. She is the MOST selfish, envious person that I have EVER met and she has crushed my spirit and I’m having a very difficult time trying to find that happiness again. I have tried to be there to support my husband through all of this and have tried to get the ball rolling with things to help them out but it has gone unappreciated and all she ends up doing is giving us the preverbal slap in the face and I now say Enough is Enough!!

Ok anonymus, many of us don't have official, bona fide diagnosis of NPD on our parents. But after a lifetime of seeing behavior, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that one's parent is exhibiting narcissistic behavior. We try to put the past into the past but as our parents are choosing to continue this behavior, it's like old wounds being constantly reopened. And they are inflicting new wounds on the next generation. And as for being able to leave, that sounds great except many of us need to remain in their lives as we need to see to their care. God bless you if you have let go of the anger, but some of us are getting ripped on a routine basis.

@Linda and others - that is exactly it. It is not just letting go of the past, but dealing with the present, on top of that damage from the past. I have thought of cutting contact, as suggested by some experts, but who would look after mother's interests? My sis has similar problems, so looks after herself, not others, and if that is at the cost of others, it doesn't bother her. I, and I know others, have PTSD from childhood and it gets triggered off regularly. What I can do is maintain my distance, do the best I can with mother's medical and financial business, and work on decreasing/releasing stress to keep my heath from being affected too much, and, frankly, hope that this does not go on too much longer, though there is no end in sight. I do reserve the right to cut contact if my health is being affected too much. My aim is to stay healthy and still do the job and that is what I work for.

Anonymus, I'm sorry but you don't have a clue. Don't take it too hard though; even trained psychologists have a problem understanding narcissism and, in particular, how being raised by a narcissistic parent affects you for life. It is easy for someone who didn't have the experience herself or even a doctor who hasn't treated many cases of adult children of narcissists to say things like get over it, you are now an adult, grow up, leave them, move on. As any daughter of a malignant narcissistic mom could tell you, you are trained since babyhood to believe that it is your role in life to make sure mother is happy, to take care of her emotional needs, to let her live her life through yours; and if you had the distinction of being the scapegoat, you are in for life long issues with low self esteem, irrational guilt, the sense that whatever is wrong in the family, it's your fault, the idea that it is your job to try to solve everybody's problems. And add to the above that you have this desire, this hope that, if you talk to your mother and help her and discuss the issues you're having with her, she will understand, she will change, you'll have a mother; only to be disappointed because she never accepts what she did, she lies and she makes up stories about things that never happened, she rages, she badmouths you to family and friends, and, if all else fails, she gives amazing performances of how she is the tragic victim, a mother misunderstood.

As for having a psychiatrist make a diagnosis, the best one can hope for is for the victim to see such a doctor (hopefully one well versed in NPD) and diagnose her from afar; because narcissists seldom agree to see such a doctor and when they (rarely) do, it is for other reasons like depression for example.
As for narcissist fathers, they are as bad. Unfortunately, my brother - the golden child - is one, and I've seen how he has mistreated his children, now adults.

Sometimes I'm thinking that if I had set boundaries early on, if I had confronted her head on every time she mistreated me maybe she could have learned to be a bit more careful, a bit more ...palatable. But this notion is again guided by the idea that it is my fault my mom is the way she is!!! I should have been a better "parent" to her and teach her better!!! Instead all my life I was scared of her and all my life I tried to appease her, please her, make her happy; and to this day my arms get icy cold, I have palpitations, my palms get sweaty before, during, and several hours after I talk to her on the phone.

But educating ourselves about this, seeing a good therapist, having a spouse/adult children/good friends that can understand us, being participants in a blog such as this one help a lot. I feel I have a long way to go to heal my wounds (and maybe I 'll never be totally over this), but I have come a long way and I feel a lot better. I try to speak to my mother and brother with respect, I help financially and make sure she, at 94, is well taken care of, I talk to her on the phone 3 hrs a week, and I stay with her two weeks each year; when she says insulting, hurtful things to me or she rages or she accuses me or my husband or children for things we've never done, I try to get off the phone or leave the room without getting mad. And after a while, when things are calmer, I get back and talk about her favorite plants or a recipe or the weather...

Blessings to all children of narcissists.

Update on my situation: I am going to visit my mother and brother for one week in the middle of the month and I dread it; they both complained that this is too short a time to visit my elderly mom (turning 94 in a few days) and she told me how awful it is to miss her daughter and not see her at her old age; so I promised to visit again for another week in a few months. (!!!)
One thing that made me feel a little better is that she asked me to contribute to her monthly income and (my husband and) I responded right away and set up a way to do that; I guess I feel better because I was able to help her in this way. Of course, when she recently was complaining about her finances and I offered my help, she told me she'd rather die than accept any help from me! Still she asked for it and still I feel good that I was able to help.
When I remember the hurtful things both mom and brother have said about me, my husband, and my children, when I remember the lies etc., when I remember the dread I feel when I'm about to talk to them, I feel that talking on the phone 3 hrs/week and visiting her one week a year is good enough. Yet, I still feel so guilty.
Another issue I'm dealing with is that my husband ad one of my adult children have gone no contact with my mom and brother; the other two adult children have decided to be low contact. Somehow, I blame myself for this! If only I had kept the situation secret, if only I didn't reveal what my relatives were doing to me. Guilt, guilt, guilt. Is there an end to this pain?

Yes, there is an end to the guilt. You have to stop feeling guilty. Just stop. Visit for the week and forget about the other week.

You're feeling guilty because you're worried about what people will think about you. Stop feeling guilty. You do the best you can, take care of you (so what if you mother dies and you don't get to see her again?). As one very famous political person said, "What difference does it make!".

I say 'what difference does it make?' You will see her this month for one week (way too long as far as I'm concerned in this situation)

To stop the pain you have to stop letting other make you feel guilty.

Anonymous, one of the most telling symptoms of a narcissist is total lack of empathy. Hmmmmmmmm, maybe you should have that checked out.

Rena, you can't keep this sort of situation a secret. Your husband and kids have heard things, seen things for themselves. The key word is "adult" children - they have their own relationships with their relatives and have apparently decided these are toxic relationships. I understand where you may feel that your kids should maintain a relationship because she's the gma and that's how our generation was brought up. But our kids are wired differently - they're not going to put up with verbal abuse just because it's family dishing it out. Our family has a similar situation - my mom was the adored gma when the 6 kids were kids. But once they became adults with their own lives and stresses, she didn't get the attention and she tried to lay on the guilt and manipulation. One by one, they have distanced themselves from her - how does one respond when you call from a war zone in the Middle East and all Gma talks about is how bored she is and how lousy dinner was? It's become a vicious cycle - the more she zings them, the less they call, the less they call, the more she zings them. So I recommend that you take the attitude that they are adults and you have no control whether they call her or not. Don't lay a trip on your kids or husband about this. Another thing I've learned is that with some people is the only way they MIGHT be happy is if you totally change your life to make their life the way THEY want it. Anything short of this ideal and they are unhappy. So stop taking precious time and energy from your own family in a futile effort to please them. Throw off the guilt, all of it. Remind yourself and anyone who needs to hear it that you're doing all you can with the time and energy you have, that this is all you got and it has to be enough for them.

Rena, I don't think you can just decide to end guilt, because guilt is wired into social creatures, especially at the human level. Rather, ask yourself if the guilt is useful or not. If you find that the guilt is hurting you and your loved ones, and causing you to obsess, then allow that awareness. If the guilt is put upon you by others, then ask yourself if it is warranted from the perspective of a stranger or God or a respected authority. If the guilt is because you schemed for your own good at the expense of your mother, of course that requires a look-see. I don't read anything you've written that you've schemed at your mother's expense. Guilt is not a one-dimensional thing. We humans are wired for empathy and guilt for survival reasons. Some humans learn to manipulate that altruistic gift we have. Where love is involved, it gets crazy. It sounds to me like you are a very thoughtful and loving person, who is being made to second-guess your good senses. Try to ask yourself if your senses are reasonable. They do that in court, and actually in the confessional as well. I so wish we COULD help everyone. And prove to those judging us that we are good people. But psychological warfare cannot be won. You just need to trust your unknown bystander, your God, or your inner wisdom. You Mom is being taken care of. Your are the target of arrows. Allow yourself the same dignity your mother probably had at your age. The depth of your thought and feelings go way more useful than a 94-year-old mother complaining to others that she doesn't get to "see" you enough. Trust me, enough is never enough, and I have found that more and more is exacted because mother may never have had the conversation you are having with your conscience. Wishing you some peace.

Anonymous, what does “moving on” mean to you? Many here are bound to take care of someone that has assaulted them continuously, even if distanced from them, because of a poisonous tether that has been inserted since infancy. Some people have experienced incomprehensible things and find that revealing, examining, re-visiting, and contemplating what came before a useful thing to do. “Understanding” is a concept long valued by people. Dismissal of appendicitis does not cure appendicitis. Psychotherapists that clinically diagnose BPD/narcissicm (BPDNs) find they are nearly impossible to work with, and many choose not to, even if the BPDN makes an appointment (exceedingly rare). Therapy for BPDN takes years. Fortunately professionals study and write about it, just as members of this topic do. Psychology like medicine are not perfect sciences nor arts. There is insidious damage done that for many causes nightmares, PTSD, serious loss of identity, and debilitating confusion since infanthood. BPDNs and their victims often are not and cannot be diagnosed and statistics can be difficult to collect. Many of us are struggling with something that is much different than what you may have interpreted (that we are a bunch of whiners who should just “get on” with our lives). Many of us will never be free to “get on” in the sense of having basic human security. I am here because I appreciate the descriptions and support of others who have gone through similar experiences. I have been able to work through my life productively and by no means spend my days wallowing in self pity. But I am lucky because I’ve had a 30-year relationship with a psychologist. I was suicidal in my younger years. Some of our fellow members cannot even afford one hour of therapy or don’t have a clue why everything they attempt to comprehend takes hundreds of times the effort beyond a simple “they are not good for me.” I will question and intensively probe my relationship with my mother until the day I die. I bleed for my Mom as though every day I have put a knife in her – but I never did. I cry daily for the tragedy of her life and what she unknowingly did to others. I suspect my Mom felt a lot of emotional angish, but didn’t have the means to break out of her inner hell. Compassion for my Mom, my own independence, and intellectual understanding of BPDN have not alleviated my emotional pain. I learn to re-direct, but it's always there. If you have buried the deep damage of your abuse -- power to you. Some of us cannot bury it and believe that “coming out” with others who have experienced similar anguish is helpful. May I suggest you read a bit about BPDN in professional literature. Also for a quick read, our government also collects what statistics it can gather. Check out some introductions such as

http://www.nami.org/Template.cfm?Section=By_Illness&Template=/TaggedPage/TaggedPageDisplay.cfm&TPLID=54&ContentID=44780

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/borderline-personality-disorder/index.shtml

to get a sense of how difficult this disease can be for the afflicted. Many of your statements are simply untrue.

Babies die from abuse, children do not mature, youth brains are neurologically altered, and adults can be tragically disoriented, disordered and tormented for life. You may have found a path and answer you can cling to like a bedrock, but others here have not. Others may believe you have denied and suppressed the pain and destruction of your past abuse for expediency, and are playing devil’s advocate here as a projection means to relieve your own guilts and pain. But psychological terror will come out in other ways, it has a way of haunting even if you deny it. Somehow you feel you have achieved perceived permanent psychological peace. I wonder why you are here on this message thread if you are beyond it. Perhaps you aren’t 100% “over it.” I experienced your posting with humiliation, shame and sense that I was scum of the earth for not being is “well adjusted” as you. I then had to “deny” you and put distance from you, much as I did with my own Mom. I had to write this in spite of my inner voice that says “let it go … keep suppressing yourself and hiding” -- because I am trying hard to put out there what I feel in this supportive forum. I ramble, but I wish I was emotionally mature enough to reply to you without hurt and anger -- and in fewer words. So I do feel that I wish you well, I just am going to have a hard time with your denial of what others are attempting to work through, at great cost to themselves. I value their struggles highly. They help me more than they will eve know. So thank you Anonymous for any reveal you can give us.

Anonymus, people cannot always "get over" or past a brainwashing job done on them as kids. If it helps to talk about it, to vent, well, why not? After all if you don't want to listen, then you don't have to. I see some very desperate people here coming for help - so please don't stand in their way.

Dealing with narcisstic parents, especially when they are elderly, is nightmare for any adult child. The thought of caring for them brings on an emotional rollercoast of dreaded emotions. When they die, sometimes your emotions change. You feel sad and sometimes think, what does it feel like to be old and alone. I am there now. My narcissistic mother is gone, but I cannot get it out of my head, what it must be like for her, being alone and scared because so many distant themselves due to her behavior. I quess it is easier to forgive the deceased than the living. I wished things could have been different, but nw I will never know.

Dear Litldogtoo, Linda22, 50sChild, and everybody who wrote, thank you so much for your support. I wish I could give you a real, big hug. I'm teary eyed, but smiling; and really grateful for being able to ask for help and get it through this blog. Have a calm and happy weekend!