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My situation is complicated so in order to keep this from turning into a book, I'm going to be very blunt and just state facts as they are. My mom is in the later stages of unspecified dementia. I'm her sole caregiver and she lives with me in the home that I own with my husband. She is legally married but her husband has been out of the picture for about 15 years. I don't have contact info for him and he likely wouldn't cooperate. He tried to claim her last year on his own taxes, just to give you an idea of the type of person he is. I know this only because we got a letter from the IRS saying we need to check to make sure we meet the criteria to claim her because someone else had tried to. She will not pass Medicaid 5 year lookback until mid June next year. We use her SS to pay for her care and to compensate ourselves for providing it, since I can't work and have to stay home with her. Can we get in trouble for that? Her SS goes into a joint account with me and it was set up before she had dementia. I have POA. She has recently had a sharp decline and this situation is no longer safe for her or for us. She has caused damage to our home, has fallen several times, is awake for days at a time, and impossible to legally contain. Gates don't work. The only methods that would keep her from wandering all night and hurting herself and/or causing flood/fire etc. are not things we can legally or ethically do, like lock her in a room or restrain her. I could go on and on but the point is, I can't do this anymore. She is leaving tomorrow for a 7-14 stay at a neuro psych hospital for evaluation and regulation of her meds. I'm terrified at the thought of her coming home after that. I don't know what to do. Can we refuse to pick her up? Since she lives here, do we need to legally evict her? Would we be in trouble for abandonment or elder abuse if we refuse to pick her up? If we wanted to try to start the medicaid application, what happens when she doesn't pass the lookback and gets a penalty? We can't wait. This isn't safe and I feel like I'm going to have a mental breakdown. I feel violent towards her and I'm worried I may lose control one day. If I tell someone that, can I get in trouble? Will it be taken as a threat against her? It isn't, not at all. I'm being honest. I'm not ok mentally/emotionally anymore and I just can't do this. What am I supposed to do to get her placed somewhere without getting into some kind of legal/criminal issue?

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Shannon,
So very sorry for your loss.

I agree with ITRR's words for you exactly:
"Shannon, I am so sorry for your loss. May The Lord give you strength, peace and comfort during this new season.

Praise The Lord that your mom has been released from her pain and suffering."
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ShannonEgen Nov 2022
Thank you, I appreciate it.
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Shannon, so very sorry for your loss. Your mother is free of the torment that is dementia now. I wish you peace and healing now as you move forward in the days ahead
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ShannonEgen Nov 2022
Thank you, I appreciate it. I didn't see this coming, not this soon.
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Shannon,
I’m so sorry about your mom.
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ShannonEgen Nov 2022
Thank you.
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Shannon, I'm so sorry to hear this!
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My condolences.
When it happens, often it happens quickly after a fall or bump. Our bodies get so fragile as we age that any issue can cause a cascading failure.
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ShannonEgen Nov 2022
Thank you. I'm still just in shock over the way it all unfolded in a matter of days.
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Shannon, I am so sorry for your loss. May The Lord give you strength, peace and comfort during this new season.

Praise The Lord that your mom has been released from her pain and suffering.
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ShannonEgen Nov 2022
Thank you, I'm thankful it's over for her. It had been so awful.
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A lot happened very quickly in the days after my mom was discharged from the hospital on Thursday last week. She began declining very rapidly and we called an ambulance for her Sunday night after she fell and hit her head. I had gotten her in bed and gave her her meds, then about 20-30 minutes later my husband and I heard her yelling and crying. I went to her room and found her on the floor, as had been the case so many times recently. Her CT scan was normal but her blood work was not. She was admitted and on Wednesday afternoon she was moved to a hospice facility. I went to visit her Wednesday evening and spent a couple of hours there, talking to her even though she couldn't respond. I got a call at 1am today that she had just passed. I'm only writing this here because I know that some of you were wanting to hear updates about what the lawyer said after the consultation on Dec. 7th. I'm going to keep that appointment and now use it to ask questions such as, do I need to track down and try to contact my mom's husband to notify him, since I'm the executor of her estate? Anyone who has been following along knows there is no estate, but I want to make sure I'm doing everything that I'm legally supposed to do. I'm in total shock right now and having a hard time processing all of this. I truly believe something happened while my mom was in the neuro psych facility that lead to this sudden change, because it all happened so fast after she came home and it just doesn't make any sense to me. She had bruises on her head when we picked her up. They were old ones too, they were green. The hospital never told us anything happened, we just saw them when she was discharged and when we asked, we were told that whatever happened wasn't witnessed and they couldn't explain the bruising. I'm glad that my mom isn't suffering anymore from the nightmare that dementia is, but I just want her back. I can't believe any of this has happened.
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Thank you everyone, I appreciate all of the help and support very much. I'm sorry for not replying directly to the last few people who have commented. I'm so tired and overwhelmed, I don't have the mental energy for a lot of typing right now. Based on the way my mom has been since coming home from the neuro psych hospital, she may actually qualify for hospice. When I take her to her doctor appointment on Tuesday, I'm going to bring it up to see if her doctor agrees and will give us a referral. If that's the case and I can get them to come here to help out a few times a week, and offer respite now and then, we may be able to just keep her here at home. I don't know, we'll see. My head is spinning from all of the research I've been doing and all of the phone calls I've been making. I'm going to take a break from all of it until Monday or Tuesday. Thank you again to everyone for your help.
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Talk to social work at the hospital. I imagine that will be part of the eval anyway. The only reason to wait for a look back is if there is money or property to lose. It’s too bad, but isn’t that what your mom’s assets are for anyway - to maintain her? Is it worth your mental health and safety to continue this way? Maybe she could go to day care a few days a week to give you respite. But maybe it’s time to let go.
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I’m so sorry you are dealing with this!
i expect u will end up losing that 40k, but to me, it would be WORTH IT to gain back your lives and sanity.

I have a friend dealing w similar. Her father lives w one daughter and is combative, incontinent, falls, etc. She and her only sibling do EVERYTHING for him. Doctor appointments 3-4 days every week. The father owns land and timber. They don’t want medicaid to get it, but they are wearing themselves out to an early grave! He will surely outlive them. One daughter has already had cancer.”
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I wonder since the IRS sent letters to your mom and her husband, would the attorney be able to contact IRS to get location of husband or maybe do a search to see if any other properties exist?
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SHannon, something I missed on the first reading is that you guys claim her on your taxes as a dependent.

I hope I'm wrong, but I believe that means that Medicaid will look at household income, not just hers in determining Medicaid financial eligibility. Make sure you mention this fact to the lawyer.

I'm so sorry you are in this mess.
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mstrbill Nov 2022
No Barb, not for LTC Medicaid, they only look at the income and assets of the person needing long term care.
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Riverdale, the reason we feel it's impossible is because we're afraid to complicate things further by jumping the gun on a Medicaid application without the guidance of a lawyer. We have no way to pay for care ourselves and my mom's only money/assets (that we know of) is her SS. Since she may have her name on some rental properties with her husband (we don't know) and because of the other factors I mentioned, we're just scared to make any moves without an attorney. We're trying to get her admitted to a psych hospital again, or a rehab facility, just for a month or two while we work on all of this. At least those places will be covered by Medicare.
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Riverdale Nov 2022
Thank you for the clarification. Personally I think the Psych choice would be better. I would fear a rehab could kick her out on short notice if it is determined that not enough progress is being made. Medicare would not necessarily pay the number of days technically eligible

I do think the right lawyer is wise of you to consider especially with possible Medicsid placement in 2023. Really hoping for the best outcome for you.
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It is pointless to keep getting opinions from everyone on here. You need to speak to a lawyer specializing in Medicaid. You have an appointment in December. Hopefully it's the first week in December so you can get the answers you need and get mom out of your house and into a place equipped to take care of her. All this speculation is just going to drive you crazy.
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ShannonEgen Nov 2022
I'm just looking for some support and also insight and advice from people who may have been through a similar situation. Yes, I have a consultation on 12/7, but I'd like to find out as much as I can now. I can't just sit here and do nothing. I want to feel as prepared as I can and it helps me to talk things out with others who understand.
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Shannon, you really need to have her placed in a nursing home and not worry about the Medicaid right now. Apply for Medicaid for her, and if a penalty is imposed or there is a denial, then you can appeal at that time, but in the meantime your mother will be taken care of and you can rest at home. Once she is in the facility, they cannot discharge her to the streets if her life would be in danger. The NH may bill you at that point, and you may have to see a lawyer to advise the best course of action (maybe bankruptcy), but I think that is a better choice than dealing with what you are dealing with now. I'm sorry you picked her up from the hospital, you should have refused and had them send her to a nursing home.
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sp19690 Nov 2022
I agree. I don't think poster can keep.mom until June. Besides I think they would pro rate the money given during the look back anyway. But she needs a lawyer who specializes in this not a bunch if random people offering opinions which may or may not be accurate.
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I'm sorry to keep adding so much to this post, but I just had a thought. A lightbulb went on all of the sudden. When it comes to Medicaid, I've been worried about, and others have mentioned this also, that I could be on the hook for the money my mom "gifted" me a little over 4 years ago, because I'm her POA. At the time she gave it to me, I was not acting as her POA. It was drawn up by a lawyer before then, but she didn't have more than a little memory loss at that time. She opened the bank account with me (that the money went into) and signed all the paperwork herself. I did NOT sign for her. She knew what she was doing. The POA contract states that she has to be declared incapacitated by a court or in writing by a physician. That has never happened, despite her being unable to take care of herself now. Anyone who has asked for proof of POA has never asked for any declaration of incapacity. So this means that when I transferred that money out of my and my mom's joint account and into my account with my husband, I wasn't acting as POA and therefore, it can't be considered self dealing. Does anyone see any issue with this line of thinking? I realize we may still have a gifting issue in terms of a penalty period for her, but this proves I didn't abuse my POA. Another thing that occurred to me is that her name was removed from my house in 2005, so technically, she has been "renting" from me all the from then, so giving me that money could be considered back payment of owed rent, correct? I can prove she lived with me with no ownership rights to the house herself, since 2005. That's a long time that we could have been paying for all kinds of things for her, and that "gift" could be repayment of nearly 20 years of expenses of her living here. I'd love to hear thoughts on these points please.
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poodledoodle Nov 2022
It makes sense what you say. Now what about the law, a judge, or Medicaid? How will they view this?

I believe they’ll still view a gift as a gift. And it depends on whether you have an understanding bureaucratic/legal person in front of you or not.

In conclusion: I think, they’ll continue to view it as a gift, Medicaid penalty.
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Shannon, did they say she was stabilized?

I would be seriously tempted to call 911 and get her transported. A facility isn't going to accept this behavior and that's a whole nother headache for you.

The hospital needs to get her stabilized.

Prayers for strength, wisdom and answers for you. Great big warm hug!
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ShannonEgen Nov 2022
Pretty much, just not in those words. They said she has dementia "without behaviors" and that they made all of the medication changes they were going to make.
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I forgot to mention that she's still getting down on the floor and scooting around, then can't get back up, and I can't get her up by myself. It's not reasonable to call 911 every day to have them help me get her off the floor. What am I supposed to do when putting her in a long term care facility is impossible right now? The people at the hospital said "you need to get someone to come in and help with her". Well no kidding! If we could afford to, we would!
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sp19690 Nov 2022
I dont think you are going to make it to June with her living in your house.
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againx100 - Sorry, I can't see any way to reply to you directly. Thank you for your reply. Yes, she's on Klonopin for anxiety and also takes Lexapro, Exelon, and Zyprexa. Nothing seems to be helping and I feel so hopeless and desperate for a way out of this situation. I can't keep this up. My own mental health is becoming a problem because of this.
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SamTheManager Nov 2022
Ask her doctor over the phone if her Klonopin can be increased for her own safety and for yours. Take the locks off the door for any bathroom or bedroom she has access to, and remove all meds, sharp objects and anything that she can throw into water that is plugged in. She can barricade herself in there and do a lot of damage in a small amount of time.
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I wanted to offer an update on everything. I appealed my mom's discharge from the hospital, and that bought us two extra days and nights, but we had no choice but to pick her up tonight. They lost most of her clothing, we had to ask where her shoes were and someone went to find them, and then they didn't give us all of her discharge paperwork and I had to call to find out instructions for her meds. We had finished the bedroom and bathroom for her downstairs, and in less than two hours after being home home, she had pulled all of the artwork off the wall, knocked the tv over, moved a chair and a coffee table, and tried to rip the baby gate down that's in the hallway. She also closed and locked her door, then couldn't get it open. My husband took the knob apart and then used pliers to rip the locking mechanism out so we could get her door open. I can't do this. I don't know how I'm going to even sleep tonight, worrying about what she's doing. I considered taking her to the ER, but for what? We'll just be right back in the same boat in no time, where they tell us she needs to be in a facility. We know. We can't make that happen. I feel like I'm having a nervous breakdown. I've been just sobbing. I'm shaking. I don't know what to do. We absolutely don't have any money to pay for care or to pay back what she gifted us over 4 years ago. She's down there banging on something and yelling. I have no idea what to do.
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againx100 Nov 2022
OMG I am so sorry that you are dealing with this! She's a hot mess! Is she on anything for anxiety?? She needs something to calm her down!
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Stop saying u could hurt her.
Start saying u r no longer able to care for her safely.
End of subject nobody business but ur own. Give no reasons just that u can no longet provide her safety. The instition is legally obligated to discharge her to a safe location. Once told ur house is not that they will have to look elsewhere. Be prepared to not having input in elsewhere.

Tmi.. I'm solo live alone.. I tried to kill myself twice.. first time I didn't get close was allowed go home... 2nd time I got closer. Locked up involuntary.
There were as couple of elderly people having their meds adjusted as your mom is. They weremuch better at the end of their time there. Since I live alone and couldn't be left myself, you would be surprised at how many places they have to cubby hole people.. I wouldn't be so worried if I were you. Just just tell them no you can't take care of her safely. Then don't pick her up
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ShannonEgen Nov 2022
Thank you for your insight and suggestion. I'm sorry to hear about your history and I hope that you're in a much better place now mentally/emotionally. Thank you again.
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Shannon, if the hospital is saying she needs a facility, the DON'T PICK HER UP.

Have you talked to the discharge planners about sending her to rehab? About releasing her to a facility "Medicaid Pending"?
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ShannonEgen Nov 2022
I've talked to a social worker there and they're saying that she needs memory care, not rehab or a nursing facility, so it's Medicaid or nothing. Her penalty period is going to be anywhere from 5 1/2 to 11 months, depending on how they interpret the way the money from the house was handled. We know she won't pass the lookback, at least not without some guidance from a lawyer. If I had been aware of any of these rules then, we would have done things differently. I was clueless before, not even realizing that Medicare or regular insurance didn't cover long term care facilities. I wasn't prepared for any of this at all.
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I wouldn't pick her up and take her back home at this point, it is too much for you to handle. I think the stress level you are experiencing at this point overrides any concern about Medicaid penalties. Please don't worry about "abandonment or neglect charges", your very rightful defense is her and your safety. Her care is beyond what you can handle. You need to tell the social workers this and refuse to take her home. You will not get in trouble, you can't be required to do what you cannot safely do, there will be no criminal liability. As far as Medicaid, yes it is possible there may be a penalty, but it will work out, this concern pales in comparison to the concern I would have if you took mother home again. I will tell you, I once had the same exact worries as you, but once my father was placed in a home, I was able to sleep again. I had similar worries as we also shared finances and a bank account, but they pushed the Medicaid through. You need to be able to work to earn a living to support yourself, and taking care of mother and using her SS check is just not enough. Please, refuse to take her home. Talk to the social workers and let them know it is just not safe anymore. Let them find a NH that will take her under Medicaid pending, and let the chips fall where they may. You can deal with Medicaid later if they impose a penalty. Your first priority is you and your mother's safety.
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ShannonEgen Nov 2022
Thank you for the thoughtful reply, and I truly appreciate it and agree with everything you're saying. My worry is, as far as Medicaid penalty, what happens when all of this gets going? Let's say she's in a facility and then once they impose the penalty, then what? Won't they just kick her out for inability to pay? What about the fact that she gifted that money to me? Can't they try to make me pay it back? I can't! We don't have it! I'm so terrified of legal issues/money issues that will be even worse than what we're anticipating if we try for Medicaid now.
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Change your Mom's marital status when filling out applications for anything, including medical.
You do not know if he got a divorce and she forgot or is uninformed.

State she is divorced, to your knowledge. Don't discuss it or explain.
Just put that out there, stand on your statement. [buying time here].

Then, find out through the courts.

The senior center often has a free attorney. They do not do divorces.

You would have needed to lay the groundwork to apply and receive so many services. Since you posted in January, I have concerns that you are unable to do the necessary paperwork(s) part of your Mom's care needs. (No guilt, it happens).

Can the hospital safely discharge her to a hotel?
If not, discharging her to your home is also an unsafe discharge. imo.

Do you have any knowledgeable friends?

***EDIT***
Proceeds from a home sale, separation and divorce are treated differently when it comes to 'gifting'. She did not receive it as a gift. If the money was spent for her rent and needs while living with you (even 3 years), that can be documented, and was not just 'given away' to you as a gift, right? Where is the money now? (No need to tell me). I feel that you have created legal and tax issues as a concern/fear that will be irrelevant or taken care of without penalties if you see the right CPA and attorney.

Do not let your fears stop you from proceeding.
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ShannonEgen Nov 2022
I know she's not divorced though. I don't want to muddy the waters even more than they already are by stating otherwise. She receives her SS and qualifies for Extra Help and is on Medicare. Other than that, I don't know what services you're thinking of and what is available. I'm beyond overwhelmed. And to answer your question, no, this is absolutely not a safe discharge. My mom requires 24/7 care. I don't have anyone in my life who could help me with this, legally or otherwise. Don't even have anyone who could spend a few hours with her to give me a break. I'm totally on my own.
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Go visit your Mom today, making your own assessment.
If she has an episode seeing you, do not bring her home.

Call her regular doctor to support you in keeping her there or being placed.
Do not know where you are located, but California has Medi-Cal. Does not have the 'gifting' qualification, but you would need to check.

Call Social Services, or apply online for SNAP/food EBT.
Accept the limited amount even if they only approve you for $15.00/mo.
You will need to supply the stats for the household, you, your husband, and Mom.

Call APS to inspect your home for safety. If she does not have a working toilet-that would count as a safety need, maybe delay her discharge. (but doubt it).
There is always a commode, but not a viable long-term solution.

Avoid circumstances leading up to the urgency to install a DIY toilet overnight by your working husband. I get you are desperate, but panic does not work.
Thus, advice from APS may help.

A Senior Center or Area Agency on Aging may have a handi-worker program to assist with toilet, grab bars, some safety renovations for seniors. This program is free, and has a high income limit for qualifying.

You can't work. How are you able to arrange these things for your Mom?
My guess is you are not, and require a little help.

Sorry, that's all I've got without reading your history-time is an issue for us all.

Seems your help needed has turned to RIGHT NOW.

Maybe other caregivers here can inform you of the "unsafe discharge" options.
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ShannonEgen Nov 2022
I'm not able to go see her. I'm busy at home trying to do as much as a I can to get a room ready for her. I had the phone conference and they ARE discharging her tomorrow. They said that she needs to be in a long term care facility. I was like, yeah, well no kidding. We can't. I just made another call to the lawyer's office to see if we can make something happen sooner and I'm waiting to hear back. My husband makes too much for us to qualify for any help. Our issue is credit card debt. With me taking care of my mom, things have just spiraled out of control. We're not even close to qualifying for any benefits, we just haven't managed our money well, to be honest. So putting a toilet in tonight and panic cleaning/prepping is really our only choice because we have to pick her up tomorrow right after my husband gets off work. Also need to grocery shop before then somehow. I'm sorry, I know I'm just ranting. I'm so upset right now and feel desperate.
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After reading some more, your Mom and her husband have been separated for 15 years?
Check with an attorney and social security to advise her on having her Social Security calculated on her husband's income.
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ShannonEgen Nov 2022
Thank you, I appreciate the support and advice. They have her scheduled to be discharged tomorrow, even though I haven't had the opportunity to talk to a doctor or anyone really in regards to what changes have been made to meds, what behavior changes they've observed, what her prognosis is, reasonable expectations, what to do to manage her at home, etc. I called multiple times and finally, just today, managed to get them to schedule a care conference, so now I'm waiting on a phone call to discuss everything. As is stands now though, she's coming home tomorrow and we're not at all prepared. As far as hiring help, we can't afford it. We only have my husband's income and we are check to check, even with us using my mom's SS. Since I'm unable to work, we're just barely getting by most of the time. We've talked about filing bankruptcy or trying take out a home equity loan. We need to renovate our bathroom downstairs just so my mom can come home and have a bedroom down there, to avoid the risk of falling down our stairs again. We're picking up a new toilet tonight and my husband will try to get it installed, all after a 10 hour workday. When I have the attorney consultation on December 7th, I'll ask about her SS. Please cross your fingers that this care conference buys us some extra time, even if it's only a few days.
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Trying to offer some encouragement here.
When and if your Mother is released from the neuro-psych hospital, her meds should be stabilized, and her behaviors could improve.

If you feel forced to bring her home, (you can refuse), please hire a personal attendant/caregiver for her because at the time you wrote this question you were in no position to be caregiver to her.

You are to be commended for reaching out, and understanding that you could not continue.

Having a plan, and improving the day-to-day (ADL activities of daily living)
will help you. Don't try to be her only caregiver.

Make a note that some people are very sensitive to changes in the environment. A full moon, an eclipse, solar geo-magnetic storms, can all affect a person. That was all happening during the time you posted this question.
Of course, not everything can be blamed on the environment. But look around you when these things occur-even an increase in crazy drivers. It is not magic if you observe these things.

Hoping your Mom and you will be feeling better soon.

However, once someone has become violent towards you, a different plan needs to be put in place. That would be a priority over her marital status or her Medicaid status. In that case, if so, do not be in her presence without supervision, do not bring her to your home. I don't have a plan B or C, but there must be one.

No need to respond at all. Take what can help, ignore the rest.
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Thank you all for your understanding and advice. I don't have the mental energy for individual replies right now but I'm very grateful to everyone who responded to me. I have a free consultation set up with an elder law attorney. The first available appointment they had is December 7th, so I know we're not going to have any choice other than to bring my mom back home and just wait this out. I called another lawyer in hopes of talking to someone sooner but they charge $300 an hour, even for a consultation. Our current plan is to keep her in the psych hospital for as long as possible, to buy ourselves some time to at least get a room set up for her downstairs. Once she's home, as soon as something happens that would qualify for her for readmission, we'll try to get her back into the hospital and just keep doing that as long as Medicare will pay, to help us make it through until July next year when we can apply for Medicaid, unless the lawyer advises something different.
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igloo572 Nov 2022
Beyond fabulous that you have a plan!

If you or other family need to be moms cheerleading squad to get her to do what so she can stay in the psych hospital, do that. if she should get all “I’m not doing “fill in the blank” the staff can write her up as non-compliant for care. After a couple of those, MediCARE will stop paying and quickly. Like within 48 hrs. She needs to be engaged & participating in some way.

let us know how it goes. And remember it’s 5 years and 31 days to get beyond the lookback. You don’t want a 1-2 day glitch to become an issue.
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Don’t quote me on this, but I believe if your Mom is considered a ward of the State than they’d have to provide her care. I’d look into making that happen since like you mentioned you’re no longer capable of keeping her at home. And btw don’t beat yourself up over that because most people cannot handle a dementia patient on their own or at home.

Now the Medicaid situation can get tricky due to the gifting. I think prior to Medicaid kicking in, you’d have to spend down 40K prior to it kicking in. But like you mentioned, your Mom doesn’t have any assets and you used the 40k to care for her (perfectly understandable btw).

I know you mentioned you don’t have the funds to consult an elder care attorney. You could talk to some local nursing homes and they may be able to assist you. Simply mention you need a dementia care unit for your mom, but that she has no assets. They can probably hook you up with someone who can help with the paperwork needed. Im sure you’re not the first person who’s been in this situation.

Also try calling your Ombudsman for your State. They can definitely help and serve as a free resource and eldercare assistant. You can totally call them and say you need help and I’m sure they can offer guidance.

Try not to get too freaked out over this - there ARE solutions and a way out that’s good for you AND your Mom.

Hang in there and feel free to keep us posted!
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igloo572 Nov 2022
I’d be really cautious about going “ward of the State” for this situation.

Reasons IMHO are a couple of things that could happen: ward is a legal action. Usually what happens if family or existing POA is not being responsive to hospital/ AL/ NH, the facility contacts APS. APS looks into the situation and if family still unresponsive or unable, then APS will ask a court for an emergency ward of the state action to get done. Court will appoint a temporary guardian (usually from a list of vetted guardian). That new guardian has a lot of legal authority and can go after anyone who appears to have or may have benefitted from or taken advantage of the elder (a vulnerable adult). The OP got $$$ the mom gifted to her & OP is her moms POA. POAs have a required fiduciary duty & that should mean that they do not do anything that could be viewed as “self dealing”. Allowing 40K transferred to you looks like self dealing. It wasn’t self dealing but it’s more that neither mom or OP ever thought mom $ would run out and it was just a lil something mom could do for her daughter & her family…. But it will be a sticky to get a court appointed guardian to easily be accepting of this imo. That 40K is going to mean the guardian will more than likely look in more detail at the moms bank statements which snowballs into having to justify or provide receipts on spends.

Plus Medicaid can ask for documentation on spends. There is someone on this site. dealing with her hubs in her 90’s Auntie and had to justify all checks written over $200….

If the mom still had plenty of $ and could on her own afford a Nh, that $$$ gifted wouldn’t matter. But unfortunately that is so not the case. This mom will need to file for LTC Medicaid and the gifting and it’s transfer penalty will surface. OP really REALLY needs an elder law atty to,run interference on this and the whole hot mess of mom having an estranged husband.

if the gifting wasn’t there, yeah, going ward would definitely be a good idea. As that court appointed guardian can legally deal with the estranged husband.
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Also ITRR idea of a board & care home is excellent as they are significantly lower in costs than a NH and small enough to deal with her individual quirks. To get beyond the transfer penalty flat may just mean that you have to use moms $ and your $ personally add to it and private pay for her care for whatever period of time to get mom 100% and 31 days past the 5 year lookback for gifting / asset transfer penalty of that 40K.

Dealing with gifting penalty is sticky. It’s not exactly a $-2-$ match up. It’s more a math problem, a division equation. It gets placed as Day 1 based on the date the Medicaid application is filed (not when the $ moved or the penalty discovered). Each State has its own Medicaid daily room&board reimbursement $ amount paid to a NH. Most do abt $185 room&board day rate. So 40K in a $185 day rate roughly 216 days or 7 months of private pay needed before she could be eligible to file for LTC Medicaid.

The extra difficultly in this is that the facility does NOT have to charge the resident the $185 Medicaid day rate for those 216 days. NH can opt to charge the private pay rate which will be way more than the Medicaid rate. Like way way w…a…y more $$$. If they enter a NH Medicaid Pending then found to be ineligible due to transfer penalty, there will be anywhere from 3-6 or more months of being there and possibly creating a private pay rate bill each & every day.

Thats another reason why ITRR suggestion is really important. You want to get past the lookback before you file. And if you can do it at a lower rate board & care home, it’s way w…a…y more affordable.
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ShannonEgen Nov 2022
I can't figure out how to reply directly to your most recent message. So as far as family, it's just me. There's no other family at all, unfortunately. Regardless, her being compliant isn't even possible. She's beyond confused and doesn't understand or follow any direction. She can form a coherent sentence. That's why we had her admitted to begin with. We're at a total loss as to how to handle her at home when she doesn't understand anything and won't stay still, especially when she can be awake for a few days and nights. We can't keep her safe. I don't understand how they can say she's ready to come home when no one has even told me what they've done with her and if they've seen any behavioral changes or anything at all.
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