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Back to my first answer, the issue is that your FIL has become a violent criminal who is not sane. Instead, people want to treat him as an elder with dementia, who needs the right sort of care.

No need to repeat all the ‘violent criminal’ symptoms you have already set out, no need to say that insanity is not his ‘fault’. We all know that. No sense in trying over and over again to work out ‘why’, failing every time. The point is that our community deals with many such people in appropriate facilities, which are NOT mainstream aged care facilities. Many of them also have grieving families. Shift the focus.
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@Burnt, yes, I am sure that there are other ways to get into the court system than with an attorney. I was NOT sure about the APS thing being legal in all states. My main point to our OP is that it is EASY to resign POA when patient is rational and well; as simple as letters and notifications. But when you are POA for someone no longer competent it does require a court action often enough. So whomever can help with that court action I am all for it. Important thing here is GET RID OF THAT POA. In my opinion it is a full time/expert job to try to manage care for someone in this condition. For me it would be impossible.
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BurntCaregiver Apr 2023
It really isn't difficult to get yourself removed as a someone's POA even when they are irrational or unwell. This is usually the only time a POA becomes active. When a person is in their right mind, they don't need someone else running their life. It's when they become incapacitated that they need their POA to take over.
If the current POA goes down to the probate court and files the papers to get removed as POA, they will do it. The the FIL becomes a ward of the state if no other family will take over.
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AL and MCs are not the place for FIL. They cannot care for someone like this. He needs at least a 72 hr hold. He needs more than a GP at an AL ordering his meds. He needs Phychiatric-Neurologist.

Its time to allow the State to take over his care. They will place him and hopefully get him the care he needs.
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@Alva

You are mistaken. They can simply resign POA by going through APS and filing paperwork in the probate court.
No one needs a lawyer.
I know a few people who actually got themselves removed from being a POA by doing exactly this.
It's not that hard to get yourself removed as a POA. In fact, the easiest route to getting removed as a POA is to do it through the hospital while someone is admitted. Their social workers get that done fast.
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ZippyZee is right. You do not have to take him in for any reason. When he gets thrown out of enough facilities he will become a ward of the state and they will have to find him a place. What happens then is the state gives permission to drug him into oblivion the second he acts up in whatever facility he's palced in.
It's not your problem to deal with. You have a home and kids. Don't get involved. Let the state handle him.
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You said, "He absolutely can not be allowed to come to our home and it terrifies me that it could come to no other option but that". They cannot force you to take him into your home under any circumstances, so don't worry about, or even consider that.

If they threaten you saying it's either you take him or he ends up on the streets... point him to the nearest bridge to sleep under. This is a dangerous and violent individual.

If your husband insists he lives at your home, move out that day with the kids and file for divorce.

He needs to be made a ward of the state asap.
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AlvaDeer Apr 2023
I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately they are already POA and it isn't just a simple thing to resign POA once an individual is incompetent, but rather a court procedure. They should resign POA at once with the help of an attorney. He should be a ward of the state and never let into their home. The social system will lie, cheat and steal to try to get him placed with them. They need to learn the word NO fast.
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While my in-laws are not violent, they loved, absolutely loved, being admitted to the hospital. The family visits, the flowers, the concern from staff. It’s reinforcing, so I think ur fil needs to know how it is without this.
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First of all and you already know this, you must NEVER take your father-in-law into your home.

Secondly, much is missing here.
The first thing we need to know is what is your father's diagnosis?
Is he mentally ill? They are releasing him as stable. That indicates mental illness, not dementia.
Is he diagnosed with FTD or other dementias notorious for violent acting out? If so the facilities are practicing unsafe discharges and should be reported to the state.

Thirdly, who is POA for this gentleman? Is there a conservator or guardian?
You say he is being thrown out of care. Where are they discharging him to? The streets?

I am going to assume this man is mentally ill. Because I cannot imagine three hospitalizations and discharges otherwise.
My suggestions, then, are the following.
Someone is being "called" to intervene or to be notified about these incidents of being kicked out of care. That person is either POA/guardian or not.
If there is NO POA/Guardian I would tell anyone NOT TO TAKE it on but to leave FIL in the hands of the state. A court will appoint a fiduciary and they with Social Services will manage this man. He will be placed and in a facility, if assessed as having dementia, that will medicate him to the level necessary. If he has mental illness he will be discharged when stable with medications he is unlikely to take, and will be followed by the police and social services of his statte.
There will not be a discharge if he is suffering from dementia. If he is mentally ill there may be a discharge.

I would disengage with this COMPLETELY. This man is either mentally ill or suffering dementia to the extent he represents to YOU and to our SOCIETY at large a clear and present danger.

I wish you the best. But you have no power in this. I would keep away from it. You didn't cause this and you cannot fix this and it has the power to destroy your family utterly.
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DCorrelle Apr 2023
My husband, his only child is POA. He was given POA before any of this began.

His only diagnosis is "dementia" (no type specified)*EDIT, sorry it does say alzheimers dementia on one of his papers* and anxiety/depression. I strongly believe there is more going on, but keep getting the dementia as the only real answer.

He is not told he is being thrown out of care until he taken to the hospital each time. It is my understanding that assisted living facilities can do so and say they are not equipped to provide for his needs any longer. He does not qualify for a nursing home as he is very physically capable. He stays in the hospital until a new facility is found to take him. Lather, rinse, repeat.

When I say they say he is stable, they are meaning he is calm and able to handed off to a facility "safely." And he is. Until he gets there and flips out.

Apologies if I don't explain things entirely correctly...this is a whole new, incredibly stressful world and I am overwhelmed.
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Someone with more knowledge than me will have to weigh in on what I'm about to say - so please take this with a grain of salt. The behaviors you describe are incredibly scary.

He has threatened to kill you. (apparently in a great deal of detail)
He has threatened to kill your family.
He has assaulted staff members, with improvised weapons.
He has threatened to kill himself.

That's an awful lot of violence.

In a person that didn't have dementia and or mental capacity issues - this wouldn't even be a thought for law enforcement, family members, social workers and medical professionals. He would immediately be put on a psychiatric hold.

So for those who are more in the know- is this a thing for those with dementia when their behavior is beyond what anyone can manage? Is there a more humane way to protect both the patient and those around them and keep them safe, while keeping them in a facility that is more locked down and with stronger medications that keeps them more leveled off like a psychiatric patient rather than just a memory care patient?

I am not trying to be insensitive at all. This sounds like a nightmare for DCorrelle and like their family is running out of options and I honestly don't know where families that get to this point turn to if their family member cannot be managed through the regular channels.

Do they offer the stronger medications in the memory care facilities? Are they allowed to keep them in the same "state" that a psychiatric facility would be allowed to keep their patients for their own safety if need be? Is this even something that is allowable within a patient's rights?

Again, I'm honestly not trying to be insensitive. I'm not a huge proponent of keeping patients constantly catatonic or numb all the time- but it sounds like DCorrelle's FIL needs something much stronger to calm him down and level him off enough to allow him to stay in a facility and I don't know what level of medications memory care facilities are actually allowed to administer to their patients before they need to be moved to psychiatric care.
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DCorrelle Apr 2023
These are all of the same questions running through my mind. How do we keep him and others safe if we exhaust all options. He absolutely can not be allowed to come to our home and it terrifies me that it could come to no other option but that.
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Thank you.

I just need to know if this is going to be a neverending cycle of placements and getting kicked out or if there is even a place with the ability to handle this. They say they can, until they experience him...
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It is terrible that dementia seems to bring on agressive behaviour in some people.

Behaviour is usually communication - but with dementia, even if you can identify the issue, it doesn't mean the situation gets resolved eg Being prevented from leaving the Memory Care building is probably quite a common problem.

It seems medication to manage FIL's behaviour has not worked in the longer term.

I think it will take a combined effort between FIL's representative (Guardian/POA) his Medical Team & a Social Worker to locate another suitable accommodation option.
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First, I’d have a few of questions. See if the hospital (perhaps the social worker there) can give any suggestion about WHY FIL’s behavior improved in the hospital? Did they give him different or more drugs? Did he get more visits, more company? WHY do they think his behavior would have deteriorated so quickly back in each facility? Any other guesses?

Then much the same questions for the facilities he has been chucked out of. Were they giving him the same drugs as the hospital? How quickly did he deteriorate (three times in a couple of months means it wasn’t instant). Did there seem to be any reason for him to go downhill?

Next, more details about how he is “violent and trashes his room, threatens staff and other patients”. In particular, what was the violence? What were the threats? Did he actually make physical contact with staff or other patients? Was he making demands, and if so what? Did the facility consider calling the police, rather than evicting him? And where did he go, if he didn’t go to your home? If it was to another facility, who found it for him?

If you are really running out of options, I’d suggest that the police do get called, and he goes into the law enforcement mental health system. But as you will be asked a lot of questions, I’d try to get answers to the points I’ve set out above.
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DCorrelle Apr 2023
It almost seems like he is able to showtime in the hospital. He seems to have more respect for the environment and that there are more authoritative figures available in an instant. One of his requests when he gets agitated and wants to leave is for staff to call the police. In hospital they have called a security guard to talk to him and that works if their uniform is police-like enough. If police are not called immediately, he begins getting violently angry. He also experiences paranoia and he has no respect for women outside of a hospital and does not shy from hitting/hurting them. It can't just be the scrubs as those were worn in assisted living as well. When my husband would visit him in the hospital he would be sweet to the nurses/staff but then as. soon as they were gone he would turn to my husband and say they were horrible/keeping him against his will/paranoid conspiracy theories.

I think he associates hospital somehow as temporary and then he can go home, so I don't know how but manages to keep it cool there so he can leave. But he can't go home and he doesn't understand that. His confusion is too great at times to be alone and he was self harming. His violence too great to be with us. He is divorced from his wife for physical and verbal violence towards her and before he was hospitalized/302d for the first time in the past few months he had turned his paranoia on me, began stalking like behaviors, threatened to kill me and had a plan to do it (which he told me through phone messages and then called my husband and walked him through the plan and told him to keep it a secret...). He then vaguely threatened he could just kill himself, my husband and our kids so they could be together forever without me. He confuses me with his ex wives at times as well. We used to have a good (enough) relationship.

As for the violence in assisted living memory care, he has punched staff members in the face. He has broken glass and held pieces of it up to threaten with. He has set off fire alarms. He picked up a table and threw it through a window. He took off his belt and used it as a whip. In other facilities police and ems were called, and took him to hospital and then we are told the facility cannot handle him and he is not welcome back. He stays in the hospital until a new place is found by a team of social worker (new one each time), a placement specialist (same one each time) and my husband.

His most recent I do not know many details about yet but he was placed in a group home setting with what seemed like more experienced staff who understood his needs/triggers. The plan was to keep him more sedated for a few days while he got used to the place and slowly taper off to see if they could as the hospital only had him on low doses for anxiety. All I know is, again, first day there, and he woke up from a nap, got angry and began trashing his room. My husband had to go back and take him to a hospital again. I am awaiting more details, all I got yesterday was his room was destroyed and he had injured himself as well in the process of raging. I don't think he is able to understand the consequences of his raging out but he does seem to sort of understand that when he does, his son comes to get him (or meet him at the hospital) so it's all okay.

We're exhausted and confused. He seems to both understand/has "logical answers" for his behavior AND not understand what he is doing and just is going downhill so fast.
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