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She is no longer eligible for services in the independent living section of the nursing facility. She is getting more and more forgetful and is very paranoid and doesn’t trust anyone including her children and thinks that we are moving her to assisted-living ourselves even though it is the facility that requested that she be evaluated and moved to a higher level of care. The administrators did talk to her after the evaluation and told her that she needed to be moved to assisted-living and she was agreeable, but wants to do it on her own timeline and is therefore refusing to cooperate within the timeline we were given which is 10 days. She won’t sign the required papers, and we were told that the POA could sign in her place on all the papers, however the line we sign on says “applicant/responsible party”.
I don’t understand the implications of “responsible party” and want to make sure I’m not getting us into some kind of legal dilemma by signing these papers ourselves.

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Wiccanholly: Retain an elder law attorney. I'm sorry to read that you have long Covid.
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This is a legal matter and a legal document.
If you have any questions, consult with an attorney.
However, clearly your mother doesn't have the cognitive capacity to make these decisions so another / POA needs to.

I would encourage the family to talk with the facility to speak about these matters with YOU/the family making these decisions. If they continue to 'ask' your mom, they will:
(1) continue to cause her unnecessary (further) frustration, fear and confusion;
(2) slow up the process that is needed (moving).

* If you do not have a MD stating the mental / cognitive state of your mom, you need to get there ASAP.

- Otherwise, your mother may be in a stage of 'limbo' and the facility may (possibly) ask her to leave. Or at the VERY LEAST, it will be ongoing mental, emotional and psychological (and verbal) turmoil for everyone concerned.

Someone needs to take control of this situation and it likely needs to be the POA who has the legal authority to do so.

After you sign the papers / documents, THEN deal with how your mom responds. Don't tell her too much . . .

And as someone here wrote, which is an excellent and compassionate way of supporting your mom through the move / transition:
"... your Mom needs an ally. ... . She needs to feel like you are on her side. Something to the effect of "Yeah I don't think you need that Mom, but at this facility that is what they are saying. Lets see how it goes. You might like it. If not, we can figure out something else." 

Get her new room ready ... keep it as close to how her room is now as possible so it looks familiar. (You will need to get her out for a ride or something in order to move her furniture; you DO NOT want her to see this 'move' happening in present time).

- Yes, she may have a fit during this transition. Expect this.

Do not argue with her. Be a reflective listener: "I realize this is a xxx (her words) situation for you. Reflect back what she says so she knows you hear her although do not agree or disagree.

Gena / Touch Matters
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I like FamilyNeeded's point if I were in the "mom"s situation. Giving POA to someone is based on the trust and hopefuly for that person to advocate for me when I become incompacitated. Who would have the absolute power to decide if I am truly mentally incompacitated and can't make decisions for myself is another issue. Therefore I would prefer POA discuss all possible options with me before signing the paper that's agains my will.
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I was able to use my power of attorney as her her signature. As long as a doctor has signed off on your parent needing to be there, it should hold up. Good luck!!
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Love-and-Hope Dec 2022
Yes absolutely agree and this is what I had to do as well for my mom.
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In ref to what Familyneeded said

This is probably a Senior Community where you start out in Independent living meaning you can take care of yourself. Assisted living/Memory care where you need help with some or all of ur ADLs. If you eventually need 24/7 care then you are placed in the LTC section.

This woman's IL has said she is no longer independent. She needs help with her ADLs and that service is not given on an independent level. If she bought into this Community she probably signed papers saying she would abide by the rules. One rule being that she will need to go to the AL/MC section if an evaluation shows she needs it. From what I read the woman has Dementia and should not be living independently. And they can kick her out. These places are private pay. She is a resident who pays rent. If there is a contract and she will not abide by it, they can say AL or you will need to leave. Its a liability for them if they are aware she needs a higher level of care and do not move her to where she can get that care.
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Not sure if you saw the note below that replied to someone else. 30 days is required. 10 days is a bullying tactic.
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If she has a POA, they are already responsible for her. If no POA yet, then either she would have to sign approval of one or a doctor's note is needed saying she is not mentally capable of that and you can do a notary. Something like that. Check your state requirements.

That being said, your Mom needs an ally. It sounds like everyone is being defensive and I see how she would feel like they are siding against her. She needs to feel like you are on her side. Something to the effect of "Yeah I don't think you need that Mom, but at this facility that is what they are saying. Lets see how it goes. You might like it. If not, we can figure out something else."

Most likely, she is between care needs and this facility wants her to move to AL so they don't have to work so hard. OR so they can make more money. Or, they truly see her needs. Most of these places are greedy.

There are options. You could have someone come in and assist her with what they won't. I know someone bridging care in that way, and it works for now. Another option is an Adult Family home, where they have different levels of care all mixed. Find a good one, though!

Or of course have her in her home or one if her children's hones, and bring in care.

Good luck and God bless!
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Probably cheaper to leave mom in her Independent home and bring care in. Sounds like the housing coordinator needs your mom place for a new applicant. Move your mom and yea we have a house for the person waiting to move in. My friend and wife moved into Independent Living and before they moved in, the facility convinced him to put her in memory care. She was so lonely and wanted to come home home and died shortly after. She felt abandoned. There is such a thing as a broken heart death.
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Your mom is smarter than you realize! You have no idea of how much neglect and abuse there is in these places. Tell them to wait!!! They can not just toss her out. Find a place that she will feel is right for her. Ten days is ridiculous! Tell them NO! Listen to your mother. What they are doing is not legal.

If it were me I'd take her home with me until I could find her the place she wanted to stay. Even then you must follow through and check on her in person as much as possible. Don't let them abuse your mom!
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Isthisrealyreal Dec 2022
Exactly, housing law requires 30 day notice. 10 days is a bullying tactic.
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"Signed, Mom
By Mom's Daughter, as Power of Attorney"

That's how you sign it.

Remember, if Mom is not competent, she can't legally sign ANYTHING, so don't invoke the POA her but not in other places like her bank. You should be taking over her finances entirely and have documentation that she can't handle them.
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As an 82-year-old, I cringe when I hear "she won't" or "she refuses" when it comes to informing senior adults of their circumstances, whether it be where to live, what to eat, or anything else. I don't want to lose control of my life and be told I HAVE to do something I don't want to do or am not familiar with. I find it extremely disrespectful and hurtful. On the other hand, when someone asks me "what do YOU think of this......???" I am happy to consider and listen to ideas. People of any age, even children, don't like to be told they HAVE to do something. It's the same thing as giving a CHOICE of what to wear that day. Don't treat us as though we are demented and senile.
Last year I was having some health issues and my daughter wanted me to come to California to (maybe) live with them. Everything was perfect there. The food, the care, their home, etc. But they determined that I had dementia (without any physical or mental indication) and treated me like a child. I couldn't make any of my own decisions or help them in any way. They whispered behind my back and I felt lonely and rejected. They thought they were treating me like a queen. After three long months, I came back to my home in Wisconsin and plan to stay here now. They weren't being disrespectful, they thought they were doing what should be done. At home, I had myself tested for dementia and I'm fine. I do my own housework and even my banking and taxes. I love to cook, and I still drive to town for groceries and visit friends. They have lived in California for over 30 years now, and even tho we visit yearly and talk on the phone, they don't know about older people and their ways. They meant well and I love them, but I need to make my own decisions, and I'm glad they respected me for that. Just think of how miserable I would be at their home for the rest of my life. I think a lot of older people are forced into a life they don't want. No wonder the elderly get depressed and lonely. I hope this helps people realize that the elderly have feelings too. Let THEM make choices, too. YOU wouldn't want to be told what to do, either!
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FamilyNeeded Dec 2022
Absolutely right! God Bless you GrannieB!!!
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Only a person who is on conservatorship can be placed against their wishes in assisted living, as the medical poa you can place her in a medical facility that a doctor deems necessary such as skilled nursing but not assisted living bc that isn’t a medical facility under the law.
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Your local probate may have doctor forms available. Generaly they are used for guardianship but the are also state forms. You can check with the MC facility if they have the forms. And yes, as others say, MC may be best for her
They provide enrichment programs for dementia.
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bkoropchak123 Dec 2022
I have to respectfully disagree about what MC facilities do. My sister, 91, has dementia complicated by hearing loss. Her family doctor diagnosed her with dementia. She lives in CA. Her son and daughter-in-law say that the diagnosis of dementia in CA requires that she can only be placed in MC. She has no other medical diagnoses and is not a “wanderer.” Thus she is in a locked in MC can unit in a facility that refuses to move her to a less restrictive assisted living unit. is this really true? Care in MC unit is minimal. They do not even keep her toenails trimmed or assist her with clothing. (She sleeps in her day clothing.)
It is inconceivable to me that anyone is limited to a restrictive setting based only on a diagnosis. I’m glad I don’t live in CA and sad that my sister does. Is the information I’m given about dementia diagnosis dictates placement in locked memory care unit?
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My only question is why they're asking your Mom to sign if she is not mentally competent? Your Mom sounds smarter than everyone thinks. Why not "take a tour" with Mom so she (and you!) can see her new "digs" before signing.
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Xxxx POA for xxxx next to signature. This indicates that the person is signing on another behalf as the POA for that person. The name on all of the paperwork should be your mothers not the POA’s they are just signing as the legal agent for your mother. Never sign without the designation that they are POA and they won’t be personally responsible. This is what the lawyer told me and what I do on all the applications and legal paperwork for my mom.
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Personal opinion here but if she is not cognizant she should be in Memory Care not AL. Placing her in AL now might mean another move in a few months.
If she is not cognizant then she legally can not sign a contract. (I am surprised that the facility would allow someone that is not cognizant to sign a contract)The POA would sign on her behalf and indicate on the paperwork that it is being signed by the POA.
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I would have your brother sign as POA, cross out responsible party, and get this moving. Since she's in no state of mind to make proper decisions for herself, it's time to stop asking her to or expecting her to. Sorry that it has come to that, but there it is.

My POA for my mom got activated this past spring. So when I finally made the hard decision to move her from my house (after 7 years), I did all the paperwork with the facility in advance as her POA and she just had to go along with what I'd decided. I don't like the way that sounds but it was necessary and it was the only way that it would happen. Otherwise, if you ASK them to sign, they can say no when they actually don't have a choice.

Best of luck.
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I signed all paperwork for my parents when they moved into an assisted living near me. There had never been any financial responsibility on my part.

if you feel uncomfortable signing ask for a statement with the facilities letterhead that you will not be held financially accountable. Make sure they sign it as well as you.

as others have said, I signed my name (a million times) and wrote POA for and my parents name. I spent hours doing the paperwork as there was teo of them.

my best to your Mom and to you
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No, her POA should beg her to sign . They talked me into signing once.i regretted that, right now I can't remember the issue, but, the POA doesn't want to be the one responsible
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MJ1929 Dec 2022
Not accurate information.
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This is exactly why you have Power of Attorney. You will have to be using it from now on. As the 'Attorney in fact', you sign as if you were her. That goes for any and all decisions she would have made herself in the past.
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I have always understood signing as POA never makes you financially responsible. You represent Mom and by representing her, you oversee her finances. When the money runs out, you are not responsible to pay her way. You then look towards Medicaid and placing her in Longterm care.

I have asked how people wanted me to sign. The majority was my name followed by POA. In some instances, I wrote her name with me under it and POA. I always wrote POA after my name when doing things for Mom and my nephew.
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Wiccanholly,

Great suggestions by the posters. I will only add that I hope that you get this situation sorted out as quickly as possible.
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If mom's paranoia is a recent development, please have her tested for a UTI. They often cause this kind of behavioral change.

I would check with a lawyer, but if you sign "Mary Smith in her capacity as POA for Dorothy Smith" and cross out "responsible party", you are probably good to go. But IANAL.
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I think you’ve changed the post a bit since I started thinking about the following reply, but here goes:

A: the legal issues:

1) Whether you can force your mother against her will may depend on the wording in your POA/MPOA about when they ‘kick in’. If they only operate when Mother is no longer being legally competent, you may need a medical diagnosis before you can use it against your mother’s wishes.

2) Ils and Als have their own contracts and rules about criteria and ‘rights’ to stay. My guess is that they could discharge her if she doesn’t meet their terms, and that they wouldn’t be stopped by the ‘unsafe discharge’ terms that apply in NH and Hospitals. If they are offering her appropriate accommodation in AL, those ‘unsafe discharge’ rules might not apply anyway. However that’s something to check.

B: the practical options:

3) You wondered whether it would be better to give M longer to adjust, in a place she is familiar with. Perhaps it’s clear that is no longer an option, and it probably wasn’t a good idea anyway.

4) You can try Beatty’s suggestion, effectively to talk her into it. Tell her that AL is so expensive that it’s a much higher status option, and her IL neighbours will be jealous. Make her think it’s a ‘win’ for her, not a loss of her power. Good luck with that, it’s definitely best.

4) If that doesn’t work you can explain to her that the AL will not keep her and that she has no-where else to go. She will have to be assessed by a psychiatrist to decide that she has dementia and is no longer legally able to make her own decisions. That will bring the POAs into effect, and she will be moved whether she agrees or not - Beatty’s ‘Bugs Bunny’ method.

5) Mother will probably be horrified and furious at the prospect of a forced assessment followed by a forced move. If possible give her a way to talk herself out of disagreeing, to save her dignity. For example, ask her what she dislikes about the move, and see if you can offer ways to overcome problems (whether reasonable or not). See if there is any advantage you can bring up (eg the food is better – whether true or not). Ask her to start working out what furniture she will take to her new room, and whether she will need extras. Perhaps she will want new curtains, because the walls are a slightly different shade. Just keep talking about it as a done deal – she WILL be moving. If it will help, cry and tell her how upset you are. See if she can get to see it as a favor to you because of how worried you are, and she is agreeing to it for your sake. She is such a good mother, she will put her daughter's interest first. Blah blah blah etc.

5) Talk your strategy through with your brother, the co-POA. You both may guess better than me about how to flatter mother, and you need your stories to take the same line.

And even more good luck! Yours, Margaret
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Wiccanholly Dec 2022
Thank you so much!! Suggestion #4 sounds like it could work!! I’m so stressed over all this it doesn’t take much to make me cry!! Other suggestions good too!! Good to have options! This is such a stressful time of year for me anyway (I have 13 grandkids and 2 are in France, 1 in Texas, the rest closer). Our finances are tight (we’re both on SSI) so it stresses me out trying to plan gifts, etc and get them to everyone at reasonable times. I barely decorate anymore and a lot of holiday cards get sent out as NY cards lol!! I have long-Covid so my energy runs out quickly and I have to pace myself. This whole ordeal is really throwing a wringer into everything!! Thank you for your help!!!!
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I think I would start by asking the AL what 'responsible party' means in that specific document.

I think it is probably as it says, either the person themself signs or the person acting legally on their behalf (POA or Guardian). But no harm in checking! Especially if legal recourse & financial implications are at stake.

Is the POA 'active"? Eg an enduring POA? Or is it the springing POA type that's springs into action when capacity is lost? If so, is there written confirmation from Mom's Doctor to confirm that? Personally I would want to be crystal clear on the POA powers before signing.

If this wasn't real life - a serious & stressful situation.. I could imagine Bugs Bunny doing his gangster persona "Hey listen here Mrs, we can do this the EASY way or the HARD way... what'll it be?"

Mom is fighting for her power here. If there is a way to present the outcome as the 'choice she wants' above other options, I think you have a better chance to have her sign willingly. Eg this private room just became is available. I know it's earlier than you may have liked, but like a good sale item - sometimes you have to grab it before someone else does!
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Wiccanholly Dec 2022
Great answers!!! Yes it is a durable POA. LOL about Bugs Bunny!😂
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POA can sign Mom's name followed by POA name as POA for mom. This does not take on financial responsibility.
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Wiccanholly Dec 2022
Thank you! That’s a relief.
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